To build a stiff F16 you need to increase class weight.
Sure, I'm gullible.
No, you just struggle to understand the written word sometimes <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
To make it simple for you:-
F18 costs can come down with lower weight
F16 costs can come down with higher weight
Whilst the above statements seem contradictory, it all makes sense when you apply logic, it doesn't take a degree in composite engineering to understand that there are weight/cost/stiffness implications if you are too far skewed with one of the three factors above.
As always, you attack the class rules. If you can't work within them just say so. Start your own class that conforms to your rules.
I doubt Macca can even remember paying for a boat out of his own pocket <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
Now I pay for many boats out of my own pocket!!!
To build a stiff F16 you need to increase class weight.
Sure, I'm gullible.
No, you just struggle to understand the written word sometimes <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
To make it simple for you:-
F18 costs can come down with lower weight
F16 costs can come down with higher weight
Whilst the above statements seem contradictory, it all makes sense when you apply logic, it doesn't take a degree in composite engineering to understand that there are weight/cost/stiffness implications if you are too far skewed with one of the three factors above.
As always, you attack the class rules. If you can't work within them just say so. Start your own class that conforms to your rules.
Pete, You still struggle to understand the written words. I have not attacked any rules, I just made a statement regarding the cost of building boats and the relationship to weight and stiffness. You brought the F16 into it, so don't cry when the shortcomings are pointed out.
How's this. You've always criticized the F16 weight, now you're ranting about the F18 weight. If, as you say, you can save money at both ends, describe this remarkable optimum boat for us. Hell, why not build one! The world will come flocking to your door! You'll be annointed THE MACCA! In time we'll all come to forget the word
Hobie
and every catamaran will become known as a
MACCA
! You'll be rich and famous (think of the women that will come flocking to you)!
THE MACCA 17? So, just how much should a proper catamaran weigh? The world wonders. Ooh, ooh, can you deliver it for $10K?
Anyone interested in a '05 Tiger? Only raced 3-5 times per year. Excellent condition. Loyd and I are looking to sell ours.. We're looking for about $10K. So is that half the price of a new one? What a bargain. My daughters are racing more with me on the H16 so I never get a chance to sail the F18. I haven't raced it since 2010.
Pete, you really have some issues to work out, I have never met you but your charm and intellect on this forum are enticing to say the least.
I have just gone through my posts and can't find anything in them that could in any way be interpreted as a
rant
and upon review its clear that I was simply making a contribution to the topic which by the way is about the cost of F18's. My responses have been directly related to the topic, unlike your (how do you say it?).... Rant?
I have just gone through my posts and can't find anything in them that could in any way be interpreted as a
rant
and upon review its clear that I was simply making a contribution to the topic which by the way is about the cost of F18's. My responses have been directly related to the topic, unlike your (how do you say it?).... Rant?
He really likes you, it's his way of flirting. He really, really wants a boat named after you.It all makes sense.
Jake could say it with big words and sciencey descriptions, I just give the insight.
I have just gone through my posts and can't find anything in them that could in any way be interpreted as a
rant
and upon review its clear that I was simply making a contribution to the topic which by the way is about the cost of F18's. My responses have been directly related to the topic, unlike your (how do you say it?).... Rant?
Indeed it's about the price of F18s. So why the issue of weight and stiffness?
Admittedly in this case
rant
is a hyperbole. But I get so tired of chasing away the red herrings, straw man arguments, and ad hominem fallacies. Couldn't you be just a little creative? You've begun to sound like Goldilocks, (squeaky, high pitched voice)
this boat is too light, this boat is too stiff, the new wonderful
Macca
will be just right. It will be made of paper mache and cost just 12 cents.
Come on man, throw in some fancy looking equations, refer to some engineering concept I've never heard of.
Too light, too heavy.
It's boring. I'll bet Wouter's wooden home build is just as fast and just as stiff as anything rolling out of any factory any where in the world.
That may be why ISAF won't consider a home build! One or two people here will remember that Holman and Moody started in a garage and became the BEST in their field.
Back to the subject, the price is what it is because that's what the traffic will bear. I'm betting the OP knows that and was just lamenting how addicted he is to this sport.
Time for my meds...
OK Guys - against my better judgement, I have to post.
How in the world can these things get so twisted? This board is one of my favorites and you are clearly a smart bunch. However, every now and then things seem to go very awry. How can an objective question get turned into personal attacks? Perhaps its SAD, too much time on the hands, whatever...
My take: Things are simply more expensive. My apologies to non-US guys for this example, but a decked-out mid-size Buick was $25k 12 years ago. Just saw one on the lot Sunday for over $40k. Yikes! (btw, I was there for another reason - I'm not a big Buick fan...)
Why are they more expensive? There are many good (as in relevant) reasons, but I think that goes way beyond the scope of what we should belabor here. This is catsailor.com, isn't it?
Personally, I'm in the market for an F18. However I've held off due to cost. Do I begrudge that fact? No. I realize its a toy and putting money away for kids college etc. has to be a priority - at least for now 😉 .
Prices have jumped almost $10,000 in 6 years. That is just plain stupid. Now it's almost cheaper to buy a F-20C than an Infusion, C2,Wildcat,Cirrus R, or Phantom.
If they can build a Tornado for $21,000 why can't they build a F-18 for that?
I curious... Are you going to buy that $21K Tornado, or are you going to spend the extra for an F-18? I think your answer will help explain why F-18s cost more than Tornados... Just a thought.
To build a stiff F16 you need to increase class weight.
Why would class weight need to increase to build a stiff F-16? The class specifies minimum weight, not maximum. Hell, a Mystere 5.0 XL fits in the F-16 box. It's even heavier than the Viper.
How in the world can these things get so twisted? This board is one of my favorites and you are clearly a smart bunch. However, every now and then things seem to go very awry. How can an objective question get turned into personal attacks? Perhaps its SAD, too much time on the hands, whatever...
My take: Things are simply more expensive. My apologies to non-US guys for this example, but a decked-out mid-size Buick was $25k 12 years ago. Just saw one on the lot Sunday for over $40k. Yikes! (btw, I was there for another reason - I'm not a big Buick fan...)
Why are they more expensive? There are many good (as in relevant) reasons, but I think that goes way beyond the scope of what we should belabor here. This is catsailor.com, isn't it?
Personally, I'm in the market for an F18. However I've held off due to cost. Do I begrudge that fact? No. I realize its a toy and putting money away for kids college etc. has to be a priority - at least for now 😉 .
Imo, the perception of personal attacks is due to the acceptance of political correctness, debate is becoming a lost art. Unless you limit remarks to the banal you'll be subject to criticism.
Prices have jumped almost $10,000 in 6 years. That is just plain stupid. Now it's almost cheaper to buy a F-20C than an Infusion, C2,Wildcat,Cirrus R, or Phantom.
If they can build a Tornado for $21,000 why can't they build a F-18 for that?
I curious... Are you going to buy that $21K Tornado, or are you going to spend the extra for an F-18? I think your answer will help explain why F-18s cost more than Tornados... Just a thought.
Daniel.
No I'm not going to buy a Tornado. I like the F-18 fleet in my area, and I also like my boat. At the current prices I will be keeping my Tiger or trying to pick up a used newer style boat.
I knew it was only a matter of time before the wheels fell off Pete's bus again.
Pete's neither upset nor losing it, and probably his meds are working out just fine; he's just trying to have a debate, he even said so.
How else did we get to page 8 without an attack on US Sailing?
Mike
This whole thread reminds me of that old joke:
Why are Divorces so Expensive??
Because...they are WORTH IT!
But no one wanted 2 divorces at the same time.
Indeed it's about the price of F18s. So why the issue of weight and stiffness?
Because, both weight and stiffness are major factors in determining the cost of the boat!!!
Just as foil length and aspect ratio are major factors in cost. if we were still using 2.5ft long boards made of foam and glass then the boats would be cheaper, but we now have 7ft boards made only from high modulus carbon, so they cost a lot more.
I don't think its possible to make it any easier for you to grasp the concept, so if you still don't get it, I'm sorry, but thats as simple as the issue gets!
You're operating within a market. The only thing you know for certain about a market is that it will fluctuate! Recent history shows us a collapse of the housing market, and a lesser collapse with cars. Do you think the F18 market is immune?
Keep focusing on cost, without regard to price, and the market will test that theory.
When was the last time there was a retreat in F18 sales? You've had one or two posters in this thread point out that margins are sharply down! So, go ahead, continue focusing on cost. Price will take care of itself.
Granted neither boat is cheap by any means, but the bang-for-the-buck factor that the F18 offeres is second to none!
Thanks, Special K - you apparently said it better than I.
I think the F18 class is trying hard to keep the cost down, but it's a battle hard to win. Each development is incrementally more expensive.
The board length is a great example, a set of custom autoclaved carbon boards for a F18 do cost a small fortune. Some top teams have them made by Reverie. £1100 for one. £2200 a pair. That's $3500 just for the daggerboards...
I hope that the class rules are going to be amended to limit the length of the daggerboards to limit cost.
OK, I've got to chime in here. Well, I don't have to, but I am.
Pete, this vid of Monty Pythons is awesome!- from a conservative point of view!
Macca, I have met you twice, here in the states. I think you are spot on with your summaries of the costs, etc. But dude, sailing a 'Macca', now that sounds pretty fly!
Good day to all
pet meds? they must think our
cats
are sick
Ok I was not going to jump in...
Cost are up but really the cost of the actual materials come on, that is Carbon Cloth, Foam, and Epoxy is just a small fraction of total cost, plus the boats are built in SE Asia where labor is next to nothing.....I'm not buying the spin on materials causing a 50% increase in cost.
I bought a full roll of carbon for $2500, 10 gallons of west system epoxy for $800 I’ll throw $500 for the foam that is $3800 and enough to build several Cats with less than half of the roll of Carbon used.
Cost are up but really the cost of the actual materials come on, that is Carbon Cloth, Foam, and Epoxy is just a small fraction of total cost, plus the boats are built in SE Asia where labor is next to nothing.....I'm not buying the spin on materials causing a 50% increase in cost.
I bought a full roll of carbon for $2500, 10 gallons of west system epoxy for $800 I’ll throw $500 for the foam that is $3800 and enough to build several Cats with less than half of the roll of Carbon used.
Materials ARE way up, but this is not the major cause of the cost.
It is the expectations of what people are purchasing that is driving the cost escalation.
Lamination materials are typically sold by the pound. An H16 hull weighs more than an F16 hull, but there is a huge difference in the labor that goes into one. Controlled resin contents and more importantly the finish work that goes into a modern hull to finish seams, keels etc. Nobody wants a performance boat with H16 style hull joints. We used to get by with stamped metal blocks, stay adjusters etc. Now we buy a boat and it has to have carbon blocks – really. It was 2-3 bucks for a stamped strip with holes in them for the side stays, now we expect 45 dollar sta-masters or 75+ calibrated turnbuckles., high tech tapered lines etc.
Horizontal cut Dacron sails were norm, now we have to have radial cut Pentex, carbon, whatever super sails to compete. Some 5 times the amount of sewing and a huge jump in material cost.
All these things add up to way in excess of double and if you really look at what people are getting for their money, I would venture to say the cost of an F18 or other performance boat is a better value, relative to what you are purchasing, now than the boats that were being raced 20 years ago. Do we need those things – that is debatable, but it is what we have progressed to.
If costs are the driving factor, then hey there is a class still for you – Rick here would love to see everyone on Waves.
Lamination materials are typically sold by the pound. An H16 hull weighs more than an F16 hull, but there is a huge difference in the labor that goes into one. Controlled resin contents and more importantly the finish work that goes into a modern hull to finish seams, keels etc. Nobody wants a performance boat with H16 style hull joints.
Are you kidding me? You may try to sell it by the pound but nobody buys it by the pound. Bagging and infusion takes less labor then hand lay-up of the olden days, the labor is at Asian rates, the finish is the result of the mold or tooling. OK High tech parts may cost more I still don't see 50% but I'm getting dizzy from the spin.
Well, sounds like some domestic, boutique builder could produce small quantities with a nice tidy profit built in! <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />
Sorry for my passion but I feel the boat builders in the US have gone the way of Wal-Mart - Made in Asia. This entire shift means there is more profit to the company yet we see higher prices to the customers. We will see what happens to quality as time goes on. But if you budget to drop 30k - 45K for one or two years of sailing cool.
It goes back to if you want to play you got to pay and if they can get away with it so be it.