Lamination materials are typically sold by the pound. An H16 hull weighs more than an F16 hull, but there is a huge difference in the labor that goes into one. Controlled resin contents and more importantly the finish work that goes into a modern hull to finish seams, keels etc. Nobody wants a performance boat with H16 style hull joints.
Are you kidding me? You may try to sell it by the pound but nobody buys it by the pound. Bagging and infusion takes less labor then hand lay-up of the olden days, the labor is at Asian rates, the finish is the result of the mold or tooling. OK High tech parts may cost more I still don't see 50% but I'm getting dizzy from the spin.
Here’s the spin.
I build composites for a living so I know a bit about this. I do not build boats anymore so there is no interest here on my part other than as an observer.
Polyester resin, gel coat, chop strand mat and rovings are all purchased by the pound. These are the things that make up your H16 of the day. I have visited a factory making F16. They were using Vinylester resin and gel coat still purchased by the pound. The fabrics are textile weaves, knit cloth and uni directional fabrics. The knits are still by the pound, but the uni and textiles are by the square yard. (Note Chop strand mat and woven roving run between 1.05 1nd 1.50 a pound, knits anywhere up to about 2.50/lb depending on the fabric weight, where a 6oz textile weave is about 3/sy or almost $9 per pound should you care to compare)
With an H16 assuming your mold is good you glue together the hull and deck, trim the edge and you are done. The newer performance hulls all have finished seams, requiring labor to fair and finish whether it if it is gel coat or paint it is still a lot of work. I have followed your blog – so you should know a little bit about the amount of work that goes into a fair shinny surface. Apart from the regulations on most developed countries this is a big part of the reason many of the companies have gone to China.
Open up your Harken or Ronstan catalog and look up the difference in price between the carbo line and the Hexaratchet stuff, look up Dyneema lines vs. pure polyester, look at sat-masters vs. holed chain plates. Everyone more the double at current prices. Add to that the fact the cost of the cheap stuff has still had its fair share of increase as well.
Our junior sailing fleet is made up of Sabots with dacron sails and Open Bics with clear plastic, wind surfer type sails. The dacron sails are pretty much bullet proof, the plastic not so much. At three years old they started to crack and tear. It was costing us $40 a panel to repair vs. replacing them for $450 each.
One of the kid's father works for Neil Pryde. He goes to their loft in China every two months. He looked at the Bic sails and said he could get them duplicated in his loft for $150 and he'd cover the shipping.
It goes back to if you want to play you got to pay and if they can get away with it so be it.
Here I agree with you, on the bail out to China. Pretty crappy and it is not a US only issue as several Euro builders have and are making the jump as well. You can all buy boats now made inthe same shop - what a deal. <img src="<>/mad.gif" alt="mad" title="mad" height="15" width="15" />
You do have 1 performance cat builder still building in the US - Falcon
Yep! And as long as Matt keeps the build in the US that's where I'll buy my next F18!
Youre not factoring the cost of hardware
I just built out an acat mast
I thought I could save some money just buying a bare tube
20 hrs labor and $1,700 in hardware later I had a mast...
There's a lot of hardware that goes into a complete F18
mimi not to get into a debate my point is they, me and you buy bulk 1 gallon, 5 gallon, or a drum of resin, a roll of cloth. I agree that cost is fixed by some unit of measurement.
They do not purchase say 12.32 pound for an individual boat or part. I have been in more than a handful of small boatbuilding shops (boats less than 40 feet) looking at the operations and some very large ship yards…
When I bought my first NACRA 5.2 I cleaned up the seams on that hull anything can be taken to the 10th degree. I’m guilty of that 100 times over I guess that is why I like to build boats and restore old cars.
It has seem that costs have gotten out of control…..well until or if I every roll out the TMS-20 then everything I say now will be retracted except build in USA always.
I gotta ask. What was the breakdown on 1700 in mast parts?
i would think economies of scale are needed to be profitable (that doesn't even take
competitive
into account)
They do not purchase say 12.32 pound for an individual boat or part. I have been in more than a handful of small boatbuilding shops (boats less than 40 feet) looking at the operations and some very large ship yards…
When I bought my first NACRA 5.2 I cleaned up the seams on that hull anything can be taken to the 10th degree. I’m guilty of that 100 times over I guess that is why I like to build boats and restore old cars.
It has seem that costs have gotten out of control…..well until or if I every roll out the TMS-20 then everything I say now will be retracted except build in USA always.
I think if you're laying up a hull with a glass chopper gun, you will be buying glass spools by the pound.
Ha I remember my first boat building job they had a hell of a chopper gun!
Jake how do you vacuum bag Chopper Mat?
I just built out an acat mast
I thought I could save some money just buying a bare tube
20 hrs labor and $1,700 in hardware later I had a mast...
There's a lot of hardware that goes into a complete F18
There was alot of hardware in the same boat 5 years ago at almost half the price. The factories are taking everyone for a ride ,dealers included.
It would be interesting to know (not that we ever will), what percentage of the big builders' selling price represents their marketing costs.
Mast hardware cost $1700?? what did you get? Can you give us a list?
Does marketing include paying for all the top jocks to race the boats at all the top events and all the expenses involved in making sure you win at events by having the best kit sailed by the best crew, of course. Does it include all the shiny adds in the yachting mags, does it include the latest high tech offices and the managing directors bonus for growing the company turn over, of course.
Sadly the cost of actually building the boats will be the smallest part in the total cost of manufacturing and selling the boats.
The second boat builder I worked for - power boats - in the late 70's really didn't need the money it was more that he wanted a boat with his name on the boat. Anyway he left the business when liability insurance got so high, offered it me, I ran the business for him. I almost took the deal but decide on a real job as I was getting married. You always wonder what if …. The mark-up was about 2/3rds back then on the complete boat, plus everything you sold them as an add-on was gravy not counting return shop fees. But like I said he did not want the insurance liabilities he already had his pile of money.
Sadly the cost of actually building the boats will be the smallest part in the total cost of manufacturing and selling the boats.
Wayne, you make it sound like building boats is a real business with a goal of making a profit, not so different from any other business really... <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /> I am not suggesting that there are massive amounts to be made or that builders are greedy, I haven't seen too many of them with 3 houses and ferrari's....
Now, I need to buy a car next week, can't decide between the cayenne or the range rover.. <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
If you want to make a small fortune building boats start with a big one
Hobie 16s have never been made with chop strand mat or rovings in the hull laminate.
And they're still made in the USA. You could buy two of them for what an F18 costs.
And I don't buy the hardware spin either. Harken Carbo blocks are less expensive than comparable Harken Classic blocks.
I'm not saying anybody's getting rich here, but something ain't right.
People on this forum bemoan shrinking fleets and that
there's no new blood
. Has anyone considered that high-tech boats are just too expensive and demanding for newbies? That they don't see the benefit of dropping $25K on a toy?
And in the meantime, you slag off Hobie 16s as
beginner boats
,
pitchpole machines
and look down your noses because they aren't
high tech
.
You're
high-teching
yourself into a very limited existence.
10K for a Hobie 16 ain't cheap. What was the price of a hobie 16 in the mid 80's 1500-2000. Do you realize that used 80s and 90s hobies are selling for more then the cost new(20 years ago). But it is not just cats. Look at the laser(same boat higher price).
Funny - but more often true then not! I have one friend that started from hocking everything to start-up his boat building business to making over a million when he sold it. It was and still is a great boat. 10 years later he is living in his shop and his ferrari 308 does not run but he did what he wanted to do that has no price on it!
IIRC, the H-16 was about the same price as a Toyota Corolla when it first came out. Now it is much less, fwiw.
The simple fact of the matter is that it's a free market, it only makes sense that a provider will charge what the market will bare. Even at these prices I would have had to wait 6 months for an Infusion and even then there was no guarantee I could get it before North Americans. I bought a C2 because it was sitting in a warehouse waiting for my check. I think most would admit that the F18 designs have converged and that only thing left is price. If the margins are as fat as you think they are prices will fall or providers will move to a market where they can make money.
I think the biggest thing that changed is that there is no longer the perception that the Tiger (a 10+ year old design) can win any regatta. The perception may or may not be based in reality. But, it means that sailors are willing to pay a premium for what they perceive as a faster boat.
Manufacturers are responding to this by updating their boats and selling costly upgrades like long daggerboards.
This perception may be based because a new design has won Worlds the past few years. So, hopefully the 2012 worlds is not won on a Cirrus R or a Falcon F18 (sorry Matt).
That conveniently neglects the effects of inflation, which are significant.
My father bought our first Hobie 16 (new) in 1973 - $1250. That's $6400 in today's money.
I bought my first Hobie 16 (new) in 1983 - $3400.
That's $7830 in today's money.
I forget what I paid for my second 16 - it was an '89 nationals boat, so it was essentially used.
I bought my third Hobie 16 (new) in 1998 - $6345
That's $8920 in today's money.
My current 16, bought new in 2007 was $7545
That's $8350 in today's money. (Rob Jerry cut me a deal.)
So a brand-new 16 costing $10K in 2012 is not that much different than ones sold a long time ago on an inflation adjusted basis. And the new ones today are a lot better than the new ones in the '70s and 80's.
I think the biggest factor is that demand has fallen. Not nearly as many boats selling. Of the boats that are selling the market share is split between about 7 companies. I think if you could guarentee a sale of 100 boats to a manufacturer you could get them at a really good price.
It's tooling and startup costs for each new design. The designs change every 3 years or so for all the companies.
We asked for this moving away from one design. I saw this coming and it's here. I actually thought it would be worse but the F18 class has done a good job of controlling costs.
need to get a single wave hull down from Pt Pleasent N.J. to central Fla will pay fair price
Thanks Kyle
Italian trash... besides, I only steal Porsches.
---Charlie Sheen, No Man's Land
Manufacturers are responding to this by updating their boats and selling costly upgrades like long daggerboards.
This perception may be based because a new design has won Worlds the past few years. So, hopefully the 2012 worlds is not won on a Cirrus R or a Falcon F18 (sorry Matt).
I'll contend rig design (sails+mast), running rigging layout and platform reliability are the keys to winning a regatta from a boat standpoint. The crew makes the largest difference, and the top crews are out practicing every day. Just because you buy the 2011 World Champ Boat (C2 btw) doesn't mean you are going to win. A lot of hype has gone into the whole
new hull shape
every 2-3 years deal. We haven't seen the manufacturers testing, and I'm sure some changes result in real performance improvements (beam placement for example), but I suspect a Wildcat rig, sails and foils on the Tiger would be very competitive with the new boat (just one example).
The Infusion hasn't changed in several years, save for the advent of updated sails and the Mk. 2 extreme dagger boards.
Sure, new boat prices are up to pay for some of these developments. Boat prices aren't going down anytime soon, raw material costs are up and shipping costs are up, partly due to the increased price of petroleum based products. If you are complaining about new boat prices, there are still plenty of F-18's on the market in the $10K range, that in conjunction with new sails are still competitive boats. The Hobie 16 is a great boat but few things in life beat a 22+ kt sustained downwind spinnaker run.
You know I just realized what is great about this forum?
It is the only place where somebody in whole World really cares and listens when you complain about how much Sailing costs.
My last H16 was laid up in Australia. 2006 model.
beginner boats
,
pitchpole machines
and look down your noses because they aren't
high tech
.
ummm, I think everyone started on a H16, so yeah, I'd say beginner boat. And it is a pitchpole machine. How many H16's can dip the tack of the jib into the water, and pull out of it?
![[Linked Image]](http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/250397_1895942929521_1570037517_31884907_3656802_n.jpg)
high-teching
yourself into a very limited existence.
Tru dat!
I don't have anything against the H16, but the H16 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.
(edit)- You guys are forgetting another factor, the US dollar is frickin' worthless right now compared to the Euro, (Wild-Cat, NACRA, Cirrus, etc), and the Australian Dollar is coming on hard affecting the AHPC Prices. When I bought my first Viper it was ~$.70 to the US dollar, right now its $1.03US to the Australian Dollar. The boats have not gone up 30% in price.