basic economics of supply and demand. That being said, I can't imagine the profit margins are substantial due to all of the reasons posted.
Who said Shiny-itis was cheap?
I don't have anything against the F18, but the F18 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.
Fixed it
I don't have anything against the F16, but the F16 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.
Fixed it again.
I don't have anything against the A-cat, but the A-cat crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.
I could keep going but I was getting bored.
Yes I agree that it is to a large part the # of boats being sold and also inflation. REAL inflation is a lot more than the official story. The long daggers really hurt the class IMHO.. A lot of these boats are going to cottagers/occasional racers and the thought of replacing daggers @ $1500 each (give or take) is really a turn off.
The Euro guys are driving the market now and I think the market is different over there..more high tech and less casual sailing.
You're probably right Dave. I'm not that way I don't think. I sail F16 because of a lack of other viable options. Nothing else fits the bill.
Had I won the mega millions a few weeks ago I'd have someone working on a 20' singlehander with a wing, a spinnaker, some sort of lifting board, and very little weight.
Manufacturers are responding to this by updating their boats and selling costly upgrades like long daggerboards.
This perception may be based because a new design has won Worlds the past few years. So, hopefully the 2012 worlds is not won on a Cirrus R or a Falcon F18 (sorry Matt).
My bet is a Cirrus R will win and it will probably be Orange. Maybe after the Worlds there will be some nice New/Used boats available. My understanding is there is at least one of the newer designed boats up for a new hulls to follow the Cirrus R in the fat and flat bottom.
Think F-18's are expensive?
How about a $15 million, 140-foot trimaran just launched.
Build of Carbon Fiber, Kevlar, and Foam in China non-the-less.
That is only $107,142.86 per foot
Well since I started this I will share where we ended up. My new F-18 is a 2007 Tiger with custom sails. At my skill level I just can't justify another $20,000 so I'll be staying crazy on 5150.
+1
no amount of boat design will ever make up for my multiple blown tacks/gybes, overstanding the mark, bad starts and poor seamanship skill.
Oh FFS! Mid 80's was near 30 years ago! As CEO/General manager/President or whatever you call it in your part of the world of several businesses, one industry I wouldn't want to be in over the last 5 years is boat building. Save a few long established OD classes such as H16 it'd be a very hard gig. Let alone on a development class such as F18 where one month you have the fastest mousetrap only to be the trash next.
For me, the cost of R&D is very much under estimated. The number of boats it's amortised over, even if you are on a winner is really quite low, especially when you take into account the ongoing costs such as sail and foil development over the lifetime of a hull.
Of course it's not a total explanation of costs but the business of selling boats these days would be a hard gig IMO.
Tiger(C2)Mike
I don't have anything against the F18, but the F18 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.
Fixed it
I don't have anything against the F16, but the F16 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.
Fixed it again.
I don't have anything against the A-cat, but the A-cat crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.
I could keep going but I was getting bored.
hahahaha funny but oh so true.
Tiger(C2)Mike
Parts required to build an A-cat mast from bare tube..
Carbon ISO plate base - clearcoated
1
$225.00
$225.00
4 cleat with rotation control arm and over rotation ears
G-10 insert
1
$21.00
$21.00
mast base insert
Mast step cone w/nut
1
$60.00
$60.00
Mast step hinge - upper
1
$27.00
$27.00
RF5101 V-Cleat
1
$5.00
$5.00
downhaul preset
474 Micro Cam Cleats w/xtrm FL
5
$33.00
$165.00
downhaul & diamond control & coarse rotation
Cam cleat spacers
4
$7.00
$28.00
align cam cleats with exit boxes
RF20711HL exit blocks
4
$27.00
$108.00
control line entry
302 wire exit block
2
$34.00
$68.00
control line exit
408 16mm triple
2
$32.00
$64.00
control line purchase
406 16mm double
2
$22.00
$44.00
control line purchase
404 16mm Single
2
$10.00
$20.00
diamond control & coarse rotation purchase
R2934 bullseye
1
$6.25
$6.25
coarse rotation
RF614 D-shackle
1
$5.00
$5.00
404 attach to diamond control arm
RF634 D-shackle
1
$4.00
$4.00
Trapeze attachment
RF-635 D-shackle
1
$6.00
$6.00
stay attachment
T-ball Dual shackle Gibb fitting
1
$70.00
$70.00
T-ball Gibb fitting attachment
350 Cheek Block
1
$11.00
$11.00
downhaul secondary turning
348 29mm Carbo Single
3
$10.00
$30.00
downhaul secondary & coarse rotation
RF1315 Black ball
1
$2.00
$2.00
downhaul tack attachment
Rigging pin - 2.5
2
$4.00
$8.00
for internal block hangers
internal block hanger
2
$29.00
$58.00
DH & diamond control internals
RF27 backing strap
2
$4.00
$8.00
to reinforce control arm pivot
1/4
x 4" ss bolt, sleeve & nut & derin/teflon spacers
1
$10.00
$10.00
control arm pivot
Anodized Aluminum Diamond Lever Arm
1
$95.00
$95.00
Diamond Wires 6100mm (pr)
1
$140.00
$140.00
2.5mm HS with unfinished bottom ends
Closed body turnbuckles JH03113
2
$25.00
$50.00
for bottom end of diamond wires
Selden Spreaders - 450 mm - w/thumb adj. (pr)
1
$190.00
$190.00
Selden
Selden Front spreader bracket
1
$25.00
$25.00
Rear spreader bracket
2
$25.00
$50.00
Mast head sail hook
1
$60.00
$60.00
proper fit for Hall tube.
4mm dbl braid - blue - (Robline Dinghy Control)
28
$0.90
$25.20
diamond control primary (25) & DH clew blocks (3)
3mm dyneema single braid - blue (Robline)
5
$0.40
$2.00
diamond control secondary
5mm single braid - red (Robline Racing Sheet)
50
$0.80
$40.00
downhaul primary
4mm dbl braid -red (Robline Dinghy Control)
8
$0.50
$4.00
downhaul secondary
4mm dbl braid - yellow (Robline Dinghy Control)
5
$0.90
$4.50
coarse rotation
Total
$1,739
Hey, for $7,000 less than a new F18, you can have one of these, and guess what?
Even though it's 'slow', it's twice as fast as an F18! (the cat, not the jet)
$13,000 ready to fly.
http:/
So easy a 14yr. old boy just bought one!
no amount of boat design will ever make up for my multiple blown tacks/gybes, overstanding the mark, bad starts and poor seamanship skill.
Ha too funny but sadly enough true for many or by my XXL size. But you got to love it.
All said and done the beauty and awesomeness of a F18, skippered by the best and touch of the luck, around the marks is spectacular. I remember thinking that about most new designs as they came out starting with the NACRA 5.2. I keep on saying they can’t push cat design much further and over the years I’m always surprised.
Human lawn dart...yikes!
Even though it's 'slow', it's twice as fast as an F18! (the cat, not the jet)
$13,000 ready to fly.
http:/
So easy a 14yr. old boy just bought one!
Yes, because when I buy an airplane, cheap is on the top of my list. <img src="<>/eek.gif" alt="eek" title="eek" height="15" width="15" />
All my copilots are chipping in to buy me one of those, such nice guys they all are!
Hey, Flying (or falling) won't kill you, it's the sudden stop that kills you! You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!
A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.
A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.
My brother had the SR22. At $400,000 the chute should be standard equipment.
A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.
My brother had the SR22. At $400,000 the chute should be standard equipment.
At $400K they should come with a helium balloon that would gently deposit you back on Mother Earth. <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.
My brother had the SR22. At $400,000 the chute should be standard equipment.
$400K for a Cirrus SR22 - wowch!!!
Hey, Flying (or falling) won't kill you, it's the sudden stop that kills you! You notice they offer a parachute package for an additional $3,500!
Come on out to CMA... we have a flying circus of these things...
I swear one of these days Bob Dylan's G5 is going to hit one
KCMA, Camarillo? Too far from my house.
We have lots of open fields down here in central FL, perfect for little airplanes, and if I do get one, I'll put it on floats and keep it in my backyard. I can also mow the lawn with it!
http:/
A friend has a Cirrus SR20X. The chute comes standard.
My brother had the SR22. At $400,000 the chute should be standard equipment.
At $400K they should come with a helium balloon that would gently deposit you back on Mother Earth. <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
The airplane I fly at work costs $262 Million, holds 269 passengers and 15 crew, yet NO parachutes!
The air, like the sea, is a harsh mistress but even more so.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.snopes.com/photos/airplane/graphics/school1.jpg)
I came across this article the other day, its about an inventions conference and one of the inventions is a parachute system for airplanes:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...
Do you think would work?
I came across this article the other day, its about an inventions conference and one of the inventions is a parachute system for airplanes:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...
Do you think would work?
That's a joke, right? It would take a MUCH larger parachute to bring down a heavy jet, softly enough for anyone to live.
And unless the airplane was in a deep stall when the chute was deployed (like that Air France A330 over the Atlantic) if the chute was deployed at anything over about 150kts, (and that's very slow for a passenger jet) it would snap the lanyards holding it to the jet, or damage the jet. But if it didn't snap the lanyards, it would give everyone inside the jet a broken neck, when they suddenly went from 450 to 100 kts. The Air France guys could have used a tail drouge to get their nose pointed down.
In the Fighter Community (the pussy pilots, with ejection seats!) they call it
Opening Shock
, when the parchute opens and you rapidly slow down. But if you punch out above about 500 kts., you are going to die of flail injuries anyway, but if you live through the ejection, you are supposed to wait until you slow down in the free fall, to about 150 to open your chute, or you'll never father another child!
Here's some ejection seat test vids. but they are not going very fast, less than 100mph. Now, imagine the opening shock at at say, 300.
No, they are not real pilots, it's 'crash test dummies' hard at work!
http:/
I'm having trouble imagining under what circumstances you would need a parachute on a large jet. About the worst thing that can happen to you is have a motor blow up on takeoff, you are heavy, slow, you just left the runway behind you and now...KaBam!
Like that Delta 757 coming out of JFK a couple days ago, or Sully and his landing on the Hudson, or these guys:
http:/
But that's why they started putting more than one motor on airliners, a long time ago, right? Redundancey = safety.
So...under what scenario would a jet need to pop a parachute? Even Sully was able to glide to a safe landing.
If it were a realistic option, and do-able, I'm sure the Military would already be doing it.
We have lots of open fields down here in central FL, perfect for little airplanes, and if I do get one, I'll put it on floats and keep it in my backyard. I can also mow the lawn with it!
http:/
Yeup, Camarillo... You ever make it out this way look me up.... will go have some fun in a Citabria
Luv that ole Bell Helmet...
We have lots of open fields down here in central FL, perfect for little airplanes, and if I do get one, I'll put it on floats and keep it in my backyard. I can also mow the lawn with it!
http:/
Yeup, Camarillo... You ever make it out this way look me up.... will go have some fun in a Citabria
Luv that ole Bell Helmet...
You got a Citabria?? I love flying the tailwheels!
Or I should say, Landing the tailwheels, in a good crosswind of course! http:/
Same thing, only different, in my Day Job, but much more fun in a tailwheeel: http:/
I am not sure where to jump into this conversation butttttt,
The cost of construction does not normally take into acount the externalities. Cheap labor overseas, no healthcare for the workers, exposure to harmfull/fatal chemicals and conditions, pollution in the form of unregulated waste disposal. This is why we send production to emerging countries, the governments are so corrupt that they have no concern for the environment or the health, wellfare and future of their citizens, but only for their own finacial interest.
We have been living on cheap oil for way too long.... Things must change. F-18 cost way more than you think when you consider all of the impact costs that it takes to produce one.
Escuse the typos por favor
I do think that cats have gotten more expensive over the years but you also get a lot more boat than a few years ago, and they are more race ready as well.
Someone brought up the price of a Tiger, but remember how much you would have to spend out of the box to make it race ready? €2000+
Remember that yellow and black rope/mainsheet they used to be shipped with?
And with the introduction of the Hobie Wildcat F18, I'm guessing they (Hobie) are admitting the Tiger is no longer 'fast enough', so a new (faster) hull design was needed, which only adds to the cost.