Wind thing with boardless cat?

Try sitting further back to prevent the leeward bow from sticking in. Wild thing should not be a problem since on the Tornado, we pull the boards up while off wind and these boat likely invented the wild thing. It's tricky to master and capsizing is a real risk, but that's why it's the wild thing 🙂

Mike Dobbs

Tornado KC 283

Double Mint

4 to 6 ft? You should have the windward hull just barley kissing the top of the chop. Since the crew is counter balancing your ability to get the hull back down is hindered. The hull out of the water at lower position means more speed.

A long time ago there was an article in the Sailing World (I think) that maintained the best advantage doing the wild thing was gained by boats that had good hull bouyancy. The premise was that sinking the one hull deep by raising the other ate into benefits of raising the hull in the first place (at least with respect to downwind sailing and the angles involved, etc.). The article was an analysis piece on hull designs used in the Little Americas Cup. Just an aside, not really answering your question, and maybe a point of interest for folks who were asking the same regarding Hobie-16s. It would seem the overall hull shape is more important than the simple fact of boardless-ness. I'd guess a 5.7 should do fine in wild thing mode.

Keith Chapman, Annapolis, Md.

H-18

Northstar 500 (monoslug)

WRCRA - www.wrcra.org

At the Trapseat national several teams did the wild thing on their H16's with Trapseats. Those doing the Wild Thing (or a mild Wild Thing) made better time down wind than those who did not do the Wild Thing.

On my H16 I was able to do the wild thing once. I was never able to do it again after though.

David

The 6.0 with the boards up should be similiar and I don't have any problem.

Part of the problem is the boomless main. Try setting your mainsail traveler to the upwind position, travel out about halfway and sheet in hard. If the boat pops up quickly travel out until the windward hull comes up slowly.

Also you might try practicing in calm water. Anything over 2 foot chop and you will have a hard time telling if the problem is the waves or the boat

David -

On my H16 I was able to do the wild thing once. I was never able to do it again after though.

David WHY only once?

I do the Wild Thing regularly on my H16. So I am just wondering why you have only done it once.

Driver problems, not boat problems. It worked that one time, and I never seemed to get it to work before or after that. That and I only had the H16 for a year before I got a N5.8. If I went back to the H16 I am sure I could wild-thing it better.

David

Thank you for the positive comment

I can summarize by something like: Driver error, try to practice more.

Just a few explaination:

We did do it for a few hundred yards at the time but we capzised every time because my rudders would cavitate when I tried to head down once the windward hull would get higher than 4-6 feet. I was trying to balance the cat to about 1-2 feet above the water.

Water was calm, 1-2 feet chop, nothing much. The wind was a bit unstable but nothing to justify the capsize

I will decrease my rake on the mast to try to decrease the weather help. This should give me a few more degrees of safety before they start cavitating.

Now I am only waiting for some ind to try it again

Thank you again for all of the comments.

Charles Leblanc [color] Nacra 5.7 #123

Charles-

Do you have the ORIGINAL 5.7/5.0 rudders? NACRA upgraded the rudders in late 80's or early 90's and made them larger- should help. Also, as an old 5.0 sailor I would agree with the comment to have your crew weight BACK- getting the bows more or less out of the water and the rudders IN the water. My 5.0 used to get kind of

squirrelly

in heavy air downwind due to the great effect on center of lateral resistance (CR) when the boat heals (as in a puff) when the CR would suddenly move from it's

normal

position forward as the bow dug in and the rudder and skeg came out of the water! Once I knew it was coming and tended to do that I just dealt with it. But to do the

Wild Thing

effectively you have to be able to control the boat well since you are basically

balancing

it, similar to flying a hull upwind and unless you can turn quickly and with (relatively) little drag IMO it won't pay off playing the rudders. I would never try it on my old P 18 with stock rudders since they cavitate at speed downwind going mild!

What you MIGHT try would be to get the hull flying and play the MAINSAIL rather than the rudders (or have you crew do so) having the crew ease the traveler in and out slightly to balance the boat while you keep the rudders more or less straight.

I KNOW this isn't

How you are supposed to do it.

, but those

rules

were written by sailors on board boats!

Let me know if/how it works!

Kirt

Kirt Simmons

Taipan #159,

A

cat US 48

Hi Kirt,

I have the big rudders and I tried the mild thing today because I had no crew available.

Under the mild thing, once I pick up speed, I can feel that my rudders have a pull on them. Moving farther back did help to sink the rudders and they seems to respond better.

I still have to change the mast rake to try to decrease the weather helm and try again to see how it affects my ability to steer the boat on a run.

Thank you for the comment

Charles Leblanc [color] Nacra 5.7 #123

Dear Charles,

Sorry I missed you last month; I got up to Vermont and didn't have your contact info w/me!!!

Just a thought on your helm problem; is your rig at all loose? Seems to me, (and I hope the *real* sailors out there will instruct me here!!) that a loose rig, off the wind, will induce more-than-usual weather helm, by shifting forward *and* leeward, moving the CE somewhat leeward, too, which might contribute to weather helm, no? Also, what's your jib doing in all this, can you firm it up some w/out backwinding your main?

I repeat my invite to you to come down to Great South Bay. My fold out sofa is always available to a fellow catsailor wishing to try 15kts all day every day.

Regards,

Ed

Hi Ed,

Nice to hear from you.

My rig is very tight. I should loosen it because in my case, a very tight rig doesn't give me anything more.

My weather help is because my mast is raked all the way back. I will rig a way to mesure the angle of attack of my rudders while I am sailing but from the informations in CATAMARAN RACING IN THE '90, I really think that I am already running with a 3-4deg angle

As far as balancing the CE, with the mast raked all the way back and the sails tuner OK, my CE is behind my CLR and is trying to rotate the boat into the wind. I am simply waiting for another day with normal wind because last time that I was out, we had difficult condition with 3-4feet chop and wind in the 25knot range with gusts.

On the day of the wild thing attempt, we had the jib was not too tight because we were trying to get the main running very well and I did not want to risk stalling the main. The main was a bit tight and the jib was a bit more open. The slot was looking OK but the problem was really than when balancing the boat on one hull, the boat would sometine hike too much and I then could not get the boat to head down. The boat would head down with less hike but with more hike it simply did not work.

Anyways, I will try again soon and tell you about it

Charles Leblanc [color] Nacra 5.7 #123

Okay, Charles, I get it now...

I only mention the jib 'cause, I sometimes forget to sheet it in a little, off the wind, as the apparant wind moves forward. It's kinda a toss up; on the one hand, a hard jib induces lee helm, or reduces weather helm, but on the other, it contributes to burying the bow, which, as you point out, lifts your rudders.

Like you, I

m a great believer in Rick's logic, regarding CLR/CE and weather helm... in Cat Racing For the 90's, he mentions that, although some truely fast skippers don't agree with him, he feels that on symetrical hulled boats, weather helm is far less valuable than on asymetrical hulled boats, and the drag of the rudders through the water may quite likely make any weather helm a bad thing in symetrical hulled boats.

I really see his logic clearly when he suggests to look at your crossbar to see if if is centered when the boat is going to weather. Regardless of the

feel" of the tiller, if the ruders aren't straight, then you've got drag, and should adjust your ce/clr accordingly. Rick makes it sound so obviuos!!!

Good luck with your next attempt, Charles, I wish I could fly along with you!!!

I am not a Hobie 16 sailor. However, I have had plenty of chances to watch Wally, Cliffy, BobO, Susie Kortz, Dan K and others. I have never observed any of them wild thinging downwind on a Hobie 16.

I have observed most of them wildthinging on Hobie 20's, Inter 20's and tigers. Since the above dudes constitute very good H 16 sailors, I doubt that others are wildthing successfully if the best 16 sailors are not.

Eric

I still maintain that I DID do it once. The wind was right, the waves were small, and the stars and moon lined up correctly...

David

Your Comment Eric: I have had plenty of chances to watch Wally, Cliffy, BobO, Susie Kortz, Dan K and others. I have never observed any of them wild thinging downwind on a Hobie 16.

You have not been to a Trapseat event then, because the top Trapseat sailors do the Wild Thing quite often. I do not watch Wally and those guys so I would not know about them. As a matter of fact the first time I ever saw someone do the wildthing on a cat (H16) was at the Trapseat Nationals in Redding California at Wisky Town Lake. When I saw them doing the wildthing I went around asking other sailors why they were lifting one hull while sailing down wind. Still on the H16 I think it is more of a mildthing than a wildthing but same principal.

Charles,

I have to agree with Kirt. On my N5.0, in 20 knots, I'm far less worried about time loss due to rudder drag, than from time loss due to righting the boat. We have found that at lower wind speed the N5.0 can be heeled effectively and sailed fast the mild or wild thing way, but in higher wind, it helps to move back,and keep the bows up and out of the water a bit. I've also found that sheeting in the main/and or jib slightly , while steering down, prevents that squirrly steeringand cavitation whereby you lose the steering completely, and practice righting the boat again. Sheeting in slightly seems to decrease the heeling force which seems to occur when the sails are made fuller. Any thoughts?

Harold

Hi Harrold,

Thank you for the suggestion

sheeting in the main/and or jib slightly , while steering down, prevents that squirrly steeringand cavitation

I used to do that when I was windsurfing but I have not really used it while riding my cat.

I am getting a chance to put my boat back in the water next week, If it works, I will try it again.

My main concern was that my rudders were cavitating and it was really the first time that I experienced that. Now, with all the discussions, I will decrease my mast rake and play with the main a bit more.

I really like to keep the main sheet tight, I will probably decrease the tension just a bit and play with the traveller. I will ease the mainsheet tension just in order to help the traveler to move more freely.

The problem is that used to be sailing in the Mississiquoi Bay of Lake Champlain and I will be sailing in the St-Laurence gulf in very cold water. I will still try it but only on fairly warm days (no need to run after trouble)

Also, I will probably put my chute back on the boat so the wild thing might not be as interesting as before.

I wanted to learn the wild thing because my previous sailing location has many fast boats like the P19, P18-2, Mystere 6.0 and Hobie20 and I am always looking for new ways to keep up or pass them

Charles Leblanc [color] Nacra 5.7 #123

Dear Charles,

A remark you made in your last post has me wondering... you said,

I really like to keep the main sheet tight, I will probably decrease the tension just a bit and play with the traveller. I will ease the mainsheet tension just in order to help the traveler to move more freely.

Charles, when my main is so tight that the traveler won't go all the way past the hiking strap, there's usually very little twist in the main. Off the wind, in order to get both my high and low leach tells flying, unless the wind is howling, I usually find a need to twist off some.

I'm told that this is because the wind is faster aloft, and so the apparant wind up there is further aft. Do you have tells on your leach, one set above the hound, and one set just above the lowest batten? That's Rick's suggested setup, with matching pairs in the luff, a few inches lower. When all the leach tells are fluttering, your main and traveler are balanced... then you just have to find where to set the traveler...

Someone else on the old forum, last year, told me to try my traveler a bit higher than usual for boarded boats.. the suggestion was 'about at the foot strap' .... I do notice less weather helm when the traveler is up there, instead of 6 inches further down, at the inboard edge of the leeward hull. I guess the main just can't torque the boat around as much, when it's held in closer, at the bottom where it's longer. Using Rick's telltale pattern, I can still get the entire leach into the game.

Finally, you can fight weather helm by bringing the CE forward, as has been suggested, ie; less mast rake. Another variable is to bring the CLR aft. If you deeply bury the bows of a 5.0/5.7, the CLR goes forward, inducing weather helm... when your cavitating/flipping event occurred, were the bows in deep? Maybe try getting a tad further aft?

Good Luck!

Ed Norris