Problems on a broad-reach?

Were you distributing the weight the same way downwind as upwind? Many people lose performance because they have centered the weight on the boat downwind, the weight should be slightly aft on the downwind legs.

Also, books on the subject criticize cat sailors for sailing wing and wing (jib flopped out opposite the main when dead downwind) but all of the monohull sailors I know sail that way (like the Taser that was beating you). Maybe I am wrong, but with a full batten jib H16s should be great wing and wing because the jib will stand out without the necessity of a pole.

One last thing, when you are sailing downwind the main has a tendency to not stand out all the way in light winds. You might have to let the crew use the boom as a foot rest to help the main stand out and get the best sail shape.

kyle h16 <

p.s. are you unbuilding the main for the downwind legs?

> Were you distributing the weight the same way downwind

> as upwind?

Uh .... since I don't know the answer to that question the answer must be

yes

by default. Hmmm, will have to look closer at this next time I'm out. Generally I've been keeping the skippers weight aft at all times, and only directing the crew back when scooting along in a screaming reach because it was only under those conditions that I had nearly pitchpoled. Definitely some things to experiment with here... Thanks for the tip!

> Maybe I am wrong, but with a full batten jib H16s should be

> great wing and wing because the jib will stand out without

> the necessity of a pole.

Maybe in my lake it's too shifty. I have trouble setting the jib on either side while on downwind legs. Even on a broad reach, where I figured there should be no question what side the jib should be on, it looked like it would want to come over wing-and-wing. (Which shouldn't happen ... or should it?!?) Of course, bringing it over only seemed to accomplish that it

now wanted to go back to the other side.

Kind of like my cats (kitty-cats that it), they can't figure out if they want in or out, they just know they want the opposite of what they have currently. Must be a cat thing. But it seems to me that choking out the slot (which is the end effect of the jib flopping about) is fatal when reaching .... so if it's happening while broad-reaching (or maybe at some point of sail between broad-reach and run), is the solution just to have the crew hold the jib out when it gets finnicky like that? Or could it mean that the boat is pointed too low and should head up?

> p.s. are you unbuilding the main for the downwind legs?

Ummm ... I don't know what you mean by

unbuilding

the main? (I guess the answer is

no I'm not

)

Tony,

I am still learning to sail my boat, but have been doing fairly well going downwind. First, you need a bridle vane; I like the telo-cat, because of the two indicators, which I place on the 90 degree position. As always, wind velocity is critical in how one aproaches trim, balance, and course. In light winds, I will sail as close to downwind as possible; I will work my bridle fly between perpendicular to my course and the indicator pointer. You feel your boat slow if you let the fly cross the pointer. A 16 will move the fastest with the fly pointing perpendicular to your downwind course and the tell-tails flowing on both sides of the sails. As the wind velocity increases, you will get down the course gybing through the centerline, basically sailing at a 45 degree angle to your mark.

I am sure you will get other opinions, and I am interest in what the A fleeters have to say.

David

Tony,

The 16 should smoke downwind. I agree with the previous poster. Get a bridal vane and learn to trim your sails to 90' apparent wind indicated by the vane. This should be your fastest point of sail. A streamer or two of cassette tape attached to the bridal wires will also work well in a pinch.

You mentioned that you pointed well upwind and the presence of shifty winds. Were the winds light? Whats your crew weight? Did you have a lot of aft mast rake? An excess of these conditions might require powering up with less rake to get adequate downwind performance.

I'm no A-fleet sailor, but these things have worked wonders for me.

Tony-

Building and unbuilding is the process of tightening the sail depending on your position.

On an upwind leg or in heavy wind you want the main to be extremely tight. This means that your downhaul and outhaul should be jerked down tight to give a flatter sail shape.

On a downwind leg or in light winds the sail needs more shape to it. The downhaul and outhaul should be loosened a bit.

kyle h16 <

p.s. thanks for asking the questions tony. I am really benefiting from hearing everyone's post on the subject.

> Did you have a lot of aft mast rake?

Oh NO!!! I've really walked into this one ... egads I am so stupid, I can't beleive I didn't see this before. Good upwind performance, subdued downwind performance, mast rake .. DUH.

Yes ... yes I do have mast rake. I don't have a second chainplate like was recommended at the lastest catsail.com article, but the forestay is at the top of the fore-chainplate and the shrouds are the bottom of the side-chainplates, so I guess it's fair to say I have as much rake as I can with the

stock

setup.

So, it seems the only way to reduce mast rake is haul up on the jib halyard ... is this correct? Are racers actually adjusting jib halyards out on the water once they round a windward mark? Seems like a risky thing to do maybe (don't drop the halyard and watch your jib fall all the way down...), although maybe with some practise I guess it's probably not so bad ... is this seriously what racers are doing out there?

(DANG I wish I had more H16 sailors to go out with, out here! Anyone want to come race in Calgary next year????)

Oh my ... boy do I feel sheepish now. Mast rake. Outhaul. Downhaul. Bridle vane. Seems there is a lot more I should be doing out there. (This is my first season on this boat ... I had never really sailed multihulls before I bought this boat.) Darn it all, now I want to go out and practise, and here I am stuck at work. (Gotta be good I guess...)

Thanks for all the great points, everyone! Boy, I am learning a lot thanks to this forum.

Is it legal to adjust the jib halyard during a race?

I have no idea.

kyle h16 <

This is my 3rd summer on my boat, and I feel like a meer rookie at the Regattas, but we have fun, learning everytime. My first summer, I spent way too much time sailing inverted...lol I am forty something, and am having the time of my life playing with my new toy!

Tony,

I have been racing H-16 for over 20 years. (Local, National & World Events) No matter how light the wind is I believe that you will find your VMG (Distance made good) will be better tacking downwind. When it is very light it is tempting to head up too high and lose ground towards the mark. Too avoid this have the co-sailor (crew) hold the clew of the jib out and up from the front corner casting, so as NOT close the slot between the main and the jib. Sail the boat up for speed and the bleed it off til just before you feel the sail & hulls stall. This becomes easier to feel as the wind builds.

There is some excellent info on ball park boat set up on the 16. This was discussed in depth a few weeks ago.

To get to it:

1-go to show threads at the top of the H-16 trapseat forum. Change this to active in the last three months.

2-Go to page 10 and look for

Slow 16

3-read

DEQ204

s set up (He is a competitive A-Fleeter in the Northeast and most of the fast boats in the US are set up similarily.)

This gives you just about everything you need to get your 16 into A-Fleet racing mode.

After that go out and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!

Tacks, Gybes, LEEWARD MARK ROUNDINGS!!!

Time on the water is KING.

The H-16 is not about changing this or that but about Helmsmanship and Tactics.

Downwind Tip: Get your weight as far forward as you dare downwind. Crew to leeward & skipper to windward directly across from each other. Our group tends not to start moving back and to windward on the boat until it gets difficult to stop stuffin' a bow.

Remember, that it ain't windy til it's SCARRY downwind!!!

Point High & FOOT FAST!!!

The key to downwind reaching is understanding apparent wind and how to trim your boat and sails to maximize. If you do not have Rick White's books or videos, it is essential that you get them. They explain it a lot better and more thoroughly than is possible here.

Sounds like you were in pretty light wind. That is the hardest condition in which to sail downwind. In 10+ the groove is pretty apparent. In less than 10 it can be hard to find. In really light wind you also need to look for shifts and patches of wind to keep moving. It's tedious but concentration and patience pay. Study Rick, then practice!

Generally, you want your jib halyard (jib luff) pretty snug. The jib halyard tensions the whole rig and, based on your shroud adjustment, determines your mast rake. You don't want to mess with the jib halyard while racing, though I don't think it is prohibited. Except for travellers and sheets,

on the fly

adjustments are difficult on the H16. Most folks set it and forget it.

Some good points there and I can definitely confirm that the winds were not the best I could have asked for this weekend. Definitely the few times I have been out in howling wind I cannot say anything about the boats performance, unfortunately none of those times were races and actually my crew and I were usually the only people nuts enough to head out in those conditions. There are no H16 sailors in my area. There are a couple of H16's in the boat yard, but I swear the only reason they are there is that the owners can point at their boats and say

Isn't it fine, that we have a H16? That's my H16. Theoretically, if I wanted to, I could sail it. How fine.

But.... I digress.

About the jib halyard and the mast rake ... I guess this is a point that I

just don't get it.

The jib has a wire in the luff. This wire becomes the jib forestay when the jib is raised. Assume that the sidestays are in the bottom hole in the side chainplates and my forestay is attached to the top hole in the front chainplate. This gives me nice mast rake when the sails are down. But when I raise my sails, if I follow the advice on the mast rake article in the recent catsail.com site, I attach my jib to the BOTTOM hole in the bottom chainplate. This is where things get confusing for me. At that point, it seems to me, it doesn't even matter if I have a second chainplate or not. It seems irrelevant: because that

new

forestay is now at the bottom, once I raise my jib, the tighter I make that halyard, the more forward the mast moves. Thus if I really crank on that jib halyard, have I not then defeated the whole purpose of putting the forestay on the top hole? All I have then is a tight rig with all my sidestays and the

new

forestay on the bottom holes, and a really loose, floppy

old

forestay, which is now just hanging around, waiting for the jib to be dropped so it can continue on being the forestay after that. A nice tight rig yes, but subdued, if any, mast rake.

Looks like I'm completely clew-less on this one. What completely obvious point am I missing here?

Tony the only reason to add the 2nd chainplate is if your existing forestay it short adn you cannot tighten the luff (The wire in the jib) to allow you to get the desired mast rake. I made a longer forestay for my boat and do not need the extra chainplate. You probably dont want to attatch the jib to the upper chain plate because you can close of the slot at the top of the jib. Where you put the tack (front corner of the sail) is a function of you jib sheet tension. The US style of rigging has you move the tack up the chain plate until you cannot twqo block the jib. (try this with the main sheeted)

Ultimately what will determine your mast rake is the side stays. Newer boats have shorter side stays. That puts most of the boats in the middle or one below middle on the side chain plates. The method described in the previous posts (DEQ204) has most fast people between 10-16 inches of rake using the halyard method. Wally Myers ~15, Keith C~15. It takes a little getting used to sailing the boat this way, you will feel like your underpowered and may have some difficulty tacking at first, but stick with it. It will pay big dividends once you get the feel.

One other point you don't want to

CRANK

your halyard. That causes the mast to be very diffucult to rotate. This year in Monterrey (16 Continentals) seemed to indicate a move towards more relaxed rigging. Not loose but not strung tight.

hope this helps

Tom

Still, all good questions.

As I take it, it's correct to think the mast rake is determined by the shroud lengths and their position in the chain-plates.

Not all shrouds are the same length. The lengths have varied through the years, some have stretched, some people have had theirs shortened. So, there is no real

Standard

set up. People have devised other means to measure mast rake.

The mast is stepped and the fore-stay is attached without any real tension in the rig, because it's nearly impossible and impractical. If an extra chain-plate is needed to easily attach the fore-stay with the chosen shroud lengths, then one is used, otherwise forget it.

The shrouds are tightened by hauling the jib halyard until suitable rig tension is acheived. In this way the jib luft has a firm leading edge that won't flutter in the wind. Of course a by-product of this action will reduce mast rake to some degree, depending on how loose the rig was setup to start with. Also some mast compression will ocurr with the Hobie jib halyard, the Aussie system reduces mast compression. Proper

Rig Tension

is also a matter of debate depending on where and what conditions you sail.

Question for Tom.

I run my jib halyard pretty snug but not super tight. I could probably get another 1/2 to 1 inch of travel out of the halyard turning block. In real light air I back it off 1/2 to 1 inch. With my fat a** on the wire I am rarely overpowered so I don't back off in the heavy stuff but I have seen Wally back off 1 to 2 inches from his standard tension. Is this in line with current thinking or is something new going on? I know the tight rig/loose rig discussion has been all over the map over the years. Probably more a matter of personal sailing style than anything else.

I used to be on the tighter side of my rig also. The last couple of years I have started to back off a little on it. I started to loosen up after sailing an I-20 & H Tiger the last couple of seasons.

I think that it is easier for the light weights (285-305) to sail with the looser rig. Wally is usually pretty weight concious. He and Mark S were light, when Mark got heavier Wally looked for other crew, he now sails with his son Tyler. They carry ~20lbs

At really windy events I see many people dropping ther rigs back. If it gets NUCLEAR (20+) I'll pin back one more on the side stays and go to16"+ of rake

IMPORTANT- When you drop your rig back don't forget to raise your trap wires.

Another Wally-ism remember to tighten your jib luff line when it snorts. It affects the jib like the downhaul affects the main!

I tend to race as light as possible.

What I think is interesting is that you loosen for lighter air. I on the other hand, will tighten my rig looking for less give and, for lack of a better term, leaning over of the rig. Of course not so tight as to affect mast rotation.

Tony, Tom was right on. as for mast rake if you can two-block your main sheet then you have too much mast rake. While there are some adjustment varaitions based on what the wind conditions are where you are sailing a rule of thumb is if you can pull in the main sheet until the blocks touch then stand the mast up a little straighter until you can just barley make the blocks touch.

as for the jib tension and downhawl they are not adjusted during a race, between races you can adjust if needed however.

your jib tension does affect boat performance, as you state you seem to do ok upwind you must have it adjusted about right.

just my thoughts

tom&nancy H16 & 20 tulsa ok