Professional sailing

Steve-

Another question is will US Sailing "Allow" a semi/ professional sailor to compete in their sanctioned events after participating in the Pro Formula 22 circuit? In other sports once you're pro thats where you stay...

Thom

Thom,

IF you look at their charter they are "the sanctioning body of amateur sailing". The law that they fall under is "Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act" in which they fall under USOC as a National Governing Body(NGB). Being that:

A. Their charter is solely for amateur athletes and

B. Other NGB's under the act have set presedence in allowing purely professional athletes to compete in strictly amateur events (the olympics)

US Sailing would open themselves up to legal recourse and congressional redress of thier charter for taking punative action against a sailor competing in ANY pay event. Remember this since Worrell teams accept sponsorship then technically under ISAF guidelines they would be qualified as "professional" additionally, any boat mono or multi that affixes logos to is sails, hulls, or clothing for any consideration including cost abatement is considered an endorsement and as such is dictated by the directives set forth by several agencies not withstanding the IRS as recieving compensation. Especially teams/individiuals that have not properly filed papers to incorporate as a non-profit organization or any corporation in that matter. ie they are professional.

This issue has come up several times and US Sailing has skated around the issue rather poorly at each level finally allowing sailors to work under the ISAF guidelines and fee schedules.

This is a very complex issue and it is a issue that US Sailing has traditionally turned a "blind-eye" to. Since they are not chartered to govern professional events they can not eventhough they state that they are the governing body for "all" sailing in the US.

Question: What stance does NAMSA take on professional sailing.

Steve

Steve-

Thanks for that clarification. I agree with their skating around the edges. What will their stance be when one of these sponsored boats shows up with all the advertising on the sails/hulls/crew. I seem to recall their being some statement about advertising in the last bylaw issue.

Has NAMSA been around long enough to take a stance? The membership is growing and currently the budget is very small. Can NAMSA afford to speak to an attorney qualified to determine this "non-profit" classification stability if NAMSA endorses Pro Sailing. Another question is what benefits can NAMSA generate with the fees from those participating.

The reason I ask is that you can never tell who an attorney will go after...ie if someone is hurt during an event approved by NAMSA can an attorney prove damages to his client? If the injured party states" I would never have participated in this event except that it was sanctioend by NAMSA. I thought it must be OK!"

I have read the releases and hold harmless agreements but the bottom line in Texas is that a person can not give up their legal right to sue without advice from legal council. So unless legal advice is given and understood by the party the hold harmless agreement is useless. I lost a large commision because of this ruling.

Thom

Thom,

You always bring up great points.

On the issue of what NAMSA gets, ...... well, I guess it could get some kind of fees from the pro events and also revenues from the sale of logo'd items.

As for liability, Namsa would be shielded by the series rules. The series bylaws state that professional teams may enter -- not individuals. There by each team must be incorporated, registered and insured in order to compete. Remember the series is for professional teams and the cost of incorporating and doing things legally is very inexpensive for all. Esp. the teams themselves. And as such the corporation bares the responsibility for providing its own liability insurance (usually part of a teams standard insurance coverage). Additionally, the contracts that are signed between sailor and team and then team and series limit the exposure to negligent acts (which as you know are extremly hard to prove and no attorney would touch it). Remember that we (the series) have had to protect the sponsors so at the same time we had their counsel make it solid against litigation from a competitor.

Now if the PRO says go race in a huricane we're screwed but, he's smarter than that. Also, lightening strike is considered act of god and not negligent besides the series has a lightening monitor and will call the races if it passes a certain level on the scale as directed by its underwriter. Anyone one struck on the beach is covered by event insurance. The biggest expense catagory (operationally speaking) for the series is insurance after that its gas and lodging then payroll( just in case someone is curious).

As this is a closed forum I can tell you that the series purse will be in the seven figure range each season paying ten deep over nine regional events and one week long championship. Please do not let this pass beyond the board forum. Contractually, if the first season pulls as expected then the purse will increase by 35% each year for the next two seasons at that time the sponsors have an option for another three seasons but must notify the series prior to the start of the third season. Also the series is not prohibited from pulling more sponsors in at minor levels. All proceeds of these efforts go to the purse after normal operational expenses. Also, the entry fees are paid to charity(s) at each event as well as any protest fees that are collected. It is my preference that these charity funds go to a sailing program or youth endowment fund. But the series could also pay percentages of those funds to various listed charities also. That decision has not been made yet.

Through that associated PR Namsa would gain some standing that it could parley into some form of revenue producing venture. The thing that we need to figure out is what does NAMSA want to do?? US SAILING pretty much covers most of the bases unless NAMSA wants to solely focus on the expansion of multi hull sailing period. If that's so then NAMSA could co-affiliate with Art Stephens and his fast and fun program (yes it is covered under US SAILING, but is treated like a step child). If that where the case then the series could contribute a certain amount of funds to buy waves to be given to the youth sailing program at each series stop.

NAMSA is a volunteer organization that needs a certain amount of $ or $ equivilant to do something after the board figures out what X is.

I have on two different occasions offered my companies services in order to conference the board and extended advisors together via a call and I would be willing to do more when the time is right.

Reminder for all here, I am not an employee of the series. I just am helping get it all together then it will be run as a non-profit corp. by a selected staff paid via the sponsorship fund and proceeds of the invested escrow accounts. My association with it will end shortly so that I can focus on my business and its growth(also my wife is pregnant and due in August).

Steve

Steve-

Has a final date been set for team incorporation? Is there a limit as to how many boats may be entered at one time by one team? What about crew backouts??? Will there be standardized contracts that cover all possibilties with the crew /corporation relationship? The last thing you want is some crew wanting to renogiate just before a race... They will all want the same deal at a minimum and if they have won a couple of races they will want more. You also don't want crew jumping teams either. So some blanket enforeceable/ binding language should be standardized that protects both crew and owner/owners of the corporation.

Also your estimate for boat cost is low in my case by about $5000. I have more than $30k in this toy. Presently I have 2 set of sails and one spin with another coming after I see what the max size spin allowed will be. So its going to be around $40k with the trailer and not to mention a vehicle to transport the boat and help me if we have to go world wide to compete. So a team with 2 boats and 2 vehicles is going to run about $120k approx, not to mention crew expenses and spare parts as well as what i'm not going to make doing this.

I tried this in the early 1970s and actually lived on the beach in a screen house tent and my car for 18 months to save the rent. My crew trained with me almost everyday and when we were about ten days from leaving to race his wife said " you're not going sailing! we're going to my parents for vacation!" That was it! No warning! I couldn't find a crew to sail a Tornado in time. If I would have had a contract we would have sailed or I would have gone after him in court but i trusted him to do what he said he would do. Actually it was power trip for his wife...she admitted it after their divorce.

Thom

Thom,

Contracts between teams and sailors are up to the teams themselves. However, the series has some "suggestions" that a team manager could use when getting their organization all compiled.

There is no team cut-off date but, there will not be more than 50 teams allowed period.

As for crew hoping, since sailors are registered to a team they are limited to the team unless the team manager releases the sailor during the season. Only after recieving a written waiver from the team can a sailor petition the PRO for approval to join another team. It is the sole discresion of the PRO to allow a crew to join another team mid season. In short, if crew hops they more than likely will sit out the season. Now if a crew leaves the team can bring in a new member if the new member has been registered and licensed. Remember that I said earlier that everyone had to take a test to get a license there will be no waiver to this rule.

If a sailor refuses to sail the manager can petition the pro to suspend a sailor for the season. Contract desputes should be settled in house -- petty disputes could lead to the suspension of both team and sailor for a race, series stop, year or indefinitely. Remember it is a "professional" series -- professionalism is expected and demanded.

On multiple team members, yes, it is allowed. 3 registered sailing members max. But crew can not be changed during a race stop unless one member is injured. THere will be a penalty applied to the team that changes members due to injury. The thought is to encourage a team to be two members that run every race together and can build a fan base as such. Remember this is a spectator sport and not solely for the racers.

The series will make every(considerate) effort to aid teams in gaining sponsorship for each team. IE.. it will aid in press releases, packages, and letters to aid in the process. It will not provide sponsorship leads or assistance past verification and simple assistance.

Once a team is registered its name will be displayed on the series website with a link (once the site is up) and team sponsor links will also be displayed in a revolving format on the appropriate media page. Each team will pay a small registration fee that will pay for the costs of licensure, registration, measuring and design of thier media page. Probably be no more that a few hundred dollars.

Thom, the costs look about like this on paper.

Registration -- 250

Entry Fees -- 100 X 9 = 900

Total -- 1,150

Protest Deposit -- 500 ( this fee will go in escrow and will be forfeited in the event of a lost protest. This fee will be refunded plus interest at the end of the season if it is unused. If the deposit is used a new deposit must be in place before the team is allowed to compete again. Like I said earlier, this will go to charity if it is forfieted. More than anything it insures gentlemanly behavior on the course and off. In other words think or your BS will cost you. )

We've all had crew problems. Hopefully, the incentive of coming home with a good size check in addition to the $ from the teams sponsors will help that issue.

Steve

Steve,

Wow. I thought this was a little more than a hypothetical series but I now realize that you're quite serious.

Clearly, the decision for NAMSA to sanction a pro series is a hugely complicated decision. I agree that it would instantly add substance to NAMSA as an organization but we could also suffer a significant loss of substance if the series never got off the ground. The questions that I have are:

- The insurance is covered by the teams. The event sounds like it will handle it's own judges and officials. What responsibilities will NAMSA have by sanctioning the series?

- How can the series benefit by being sanctioned by NAMSA?

Jake,

I agree that NAMSA can gain or lose by the actions of the series (actually the take off of it). I would first state that NAMSA should not take a public stance until the sponsors have moved funds over to the agreed to escrow accounts. Which they should do with in the next 14 days.

Second to that there are a few issues left to be ironed out on the delivery of enough boats to keep the series out of breech with the sponsors. It is a logistical isue of delivering enough boats in time (March 1 2004). The series must have 20 minimum boats at every race stop. This figure I do not see a problem with from the racers end of the spectrum since there are already 9-11 serious entrants standing in the wings. The issue as I said is with the platform. We are working that out and are getting in proposals to meet the minimum.

As to insurance, The series has event insurance, workers comp, errors and ommisions, and a few other types all rolled into its operational package. IN ADDITION to that each team is required to carry loss and damage. As well as a builder who must carry product liability insurance. We are working with a european company that would offer full turn key programs for the teams in order to streamline the coverage and aid the teams in meeting the criteria.

Regarding to NAMSA's responsibilities that is really open for conversation. Assistance in rules, volunteers, protest hearings, measuring, etc. are possible areas where NAMSA could assist. Another is as the monitoring body for Multihull sailing to assure that everything is run in accordance to rules agreed to.

The series will be handled by its own judges but it is good to police the police.

How can the series benefit? From all the above mentioned acts.

Thanks

Steve

Steve,

The more I think about it, the more I think this could really be a big ticket for NAMSA. I would be interested to hear from others on the board.

so would I. Also a notice to all the pay schedule has been changed to 20 deep over nine regional events and one championship event. Also, the series is working to encourage teams to race in every event.

Due to tooling issues the series will likely start on "new platform" 20 foot HT designs. This is to insure that the series will have enough boats available as to not be in "breech" of its sponsor contracts. There is no builder (or combiniation thereof ) that can assure the series as to having the required 20 boat minimum on the first race scheduled for March 1 2004.

Design box is as follows.

20' max loa

9' max beam

22 sq m main max

25 sq m spin max

crew minimum 350 (optimized for 360-390)

boat target cost built/sold at 18K or less

No corrector weight will be allowed to meet minimum. Boats will be certified only from the five certified builders -- one off and modified production boats will not be allowed due to insurance reason. Designs are being submitted now and will be reviewed shortly, once this is done a public annoucement will be made. The first sponsor has signed thier contract and once the infrastructure is in place the public announcement will be made. The series will be working on graphics, media kits, builder issues and the like over the next few weeks. With the reshuffle of boat platforms the announcement has been placed back to August 1 2002.

Steve

I agree with you Jake. This could be a huge shot in the arm for NAMSA. I know there are several fleets out there still sitting on the fence as whether they want to join or not. This could definitely push them over the edge.

Bob Blackington

Treasurer

I posted in another thread my thoughts...

While this discussion is worthwhile, perhaps we ought to concentrate on getting the folks who have already joined, something to show for it. Membership package and newsletter, and work on insurance...

From what I've heard, the insurance issue is popular with everyone and will be a real toughie to pursue...

sea ya

tami

Note to all Namsa board members:

The series officers have had several positive conversations with US Sailing in regards to racing rules, racing officiating, olympic campaign contributions (ie a sailor can compete without damaging their ratings), sanctioning, affiliation to ISAF introduction/affiliation with YC's in US and series/class confirmation.

This is an opportunity for NAMSA to coat tail in to a better position as well as using the financial mass of the series to aid it in cutting better deals for its members in the area of insurance, financial services, communications services.

There needs to be a board meeting to discuss this issue and preferrably not a web conference. We are on a 7 week time clock and after that time all changes are "public" and the series will less able to manuever.

Thanks

Steve

Hi Steve and All,

Sorry about by absence – I was absconded by aliens, swept off to another universe and just now have been dropped back down and am presently earthbound. I have really had very little ability to get on the internet or get email. Sorry! But, I am back!

First of all, I had talked to Steve last year about this and felt at that time this would be a good thing for NAMSA – and that was even before NAMSA really started to blossom. I still feel that way and can see very little wrong with our jumping in to help on this project. And I believe it would help our funding to advertise for more members. To digress about membership – we will all need to really hit it again later this summer or early fall, and before organizations start re-organizing and billing their membership for 2003 dues.

Steve, you mentioned that you could arrange a phone meeting of the board. That would be a great idea. I believe under the Constitution "Board meetings may take place from time to time for the purpose of discussing NAMSA business and establishing NAMSA policy." And that is exactly what we have to do.

The Board consists of the following:

Rick White 305-451-3287

Jake Kohl

Tim Johnson

Bob Blackington

Kirt Simmons

Tami Shelton.

How about we designate a given time for a call, i.e., Monday evening 7pm EDT, June 17? Or any other time you all would prefer. If each would post a reply as to their availability and contact number for that time, perhaps Steve can get this done in one swoop.

My contact no. is 305-451-3287

Also, Perhaps we can talk Thom into heading up the Committee for this. What are the chances, Thom?

Thanks all,

Rick

Rick

I am happy to host a Conference call. it would be better for me to start at 8pm eastern time and probably be would for anyone out west.

Please post here and let me know.

Steve

I'm good with most any time during the week, I'm on central time

281.538.4700

sea ya

tami

Rather than dialing everyone in it would be easier for everyone to agree to a time then I can post a bridge number (800 number) for everyone to call into.

That way I'm not running around trying to patch people in.

Steve

Sounds good to me. 8PM on Monday evening.

Post the number and I will email all the board just in case someone is missing these postings.

Rick

I'm in and looking forward to it. Shall we try and establish some sort of organized schedule for discussion? Of the things I see we need to discuss are:

1) professional sailing sanctioning

2) individual membership benefits

3) chapter membership benefits

8 tonight is good for me.

Bob Blackington

Treasurer

Steve and all,

One of the things we all can do to help the series is to remind our folks what brand loyalty can do for a sport like this. About 10 years ago a sports study was done on sports and sponsorship and they found that of all the sports out there, the NASCAR fans were the most loyal of the bunch (I know a bunch of folks that won't use Tide because of driver xxx and so on). We've seen what happened when the sponsors figured that out - NASCAR has exploded in the last 10 years.

Steve-

As I related to you before you can declare war and have no one show to fight. One problem about catsailing is that very few can relate to catamarans. When compared to cars there's no comparison because almost everyone on the planet knows what a car is while most on the planet have never sailed on any boat much less a cat.

I spent all day Saturday at the lake with my 22 sitting on the trailer in front of the marina. About 300 people walked by that boat to the restaurants and boats. Not one stopped to talk about the boat nor did more than five pay attention to it. How many times do you see a ARC22 sitting on a trailer??? I went to eat at the restaurant and spoke with some of the people I spoke to last time. Most had forgotten about the Formula 22 concept I spoke of and none asked about how it was coming along. No interest what so ever. So I must have been overly optomistic about the responses these people gave me last time I spoke to them.

Next week I think I will attach $20 bills to the rigging to see if they notice it then...

thom

Thom,

I have felt your pain before. I think I said earlier along most people feel watching sailboat racing is like watching grass grow.

It is generally felt that no one part is the lynch pin to this but rather the aplication of all the ingredients. A race car is not a race car unless there is a valuable race for it to attend. Thats what makes dirt cars less intriquing than Indy cars. Well indy cars really don't get any play until they are "AT" Indy. So its a formula the money, the sailors, and the technology (both boat and electronic) that should be compelling or intriquing.

Thanks for the input.

Steve

Steve,

How are things coming with the circuit development?

Sorry, I have been really busy with work lately.

The series is moving forward --- slowly. Well, thats not really quite right. The series is moving on well -- I'm just very impatient right now.

There are several builders who are interested in the series and so far Marstrom has been the first to submit a design, cost and delivery schedule that has been accepted and approved by the series board. I hope to have a few more in the next few weeks.

I have been talking to alot of potential racers about crew weight and everyone has an opinion. We'll just leave it there. The crew weight minimum will be 350. Ten pounds of corrector weight maximum attached to the boat. Crews can weigh in sailing gear or just shorts (no camelbaks at weighin). Crews will weigh in before a regatta and after each racing day.

Other than that everything else is pretty much ready to go. Just need to get the boats worked out then we are a go ...... hopefully. We're alittle concerned about insurance if we have another sept. like problem.

Steve

M20 Physical Description

-The M20 is designed to operate/ perform with full power from 8 knots of wind up to 22 knots and could handle the same waves as all other small racing beach cats could. (It s impossible to say how high, it depends on length and characteristics)

-Two men or women, both in trapeze, handle the M20.

-Designed crew weight is two times eighty kilos and the maximum crew weight is 200kg (440 pounds)

Boat data:

Length: 6090mm (20´)

Width: 2910mm (9,5´)

Weight: Complete without sails 105kg (231 pounds)

Mast length: 10500mm (34.45´)

Genaker Pole length: 3800mm (12,4´)

The M20 ready to race will include the following equipment:

2 Hulls and beams with dagger boards, rudders with tiller bar and extension, all made out from Carbon epoxy prepreg with honeycomb core. All cure in autoclave in 120 degrees. Everything except beam bolts and rigging pins are made in carbon!

Carbon mast and boom painted.

Carbon rigging and trapeze.

Genaker equipment: pole and launcher painted.

Sails: Mainsail, Genaker.

Trampoline and blocks in Marstrom own design or Harken, sheets for all the sails and trim. Ropes from spectra or vectran of highest quality.

Necessary deck hardware.

Launching trolley and rear end stands.

Paintwork could be done in all RAL colour as standard. One for the hull, and one different for the deck. (Anti slip area) Metallic and very high shiny colours are more expensive, the metallic paint will also make the boat heavier approximately 1.5Kg / each hull. Custom paintwork to be offered.

Cost delivered with transport container for use in series transports. 22,250 Euros (Cost). Price will fluxuate according to the dollar to euro conversion. THe series is working on creditlines for teams to use in order to defray the cost of equipment. ALso, it is the desire of the series to see teams with two boats. One for racing that will be transported around via semi trailers and the other to be the practice boat that a team uses at home. This will in the long run be the cheaper way to run the series as airfare can be purchased up to a year in advance with huge savings and the series will charge a team a flat fee for transport of its race boat (cost split among teams in each trailer - sponsors provide driver and truck, teams only cover cost of fuel/tolls/tags) Also, the series will have a parts trailer that will run a credit basis parts system that is 2%10 net 30 on all parts. Teams will be responsible for thier own sails after the first set and two sets must be registered and in inventory on the parts trailer two weeks before any event that is to be run. IE this prevents teams from having unregister/approved modifications to sails or boats (helps reduce overhead costs of each event as measuring does not have to occur for every boat at each event as they and parts are in the custody of the series) (periodically, every boat will be subject to remeasure - certification at the discreation of the PRO)

Thanks

Steve