The last time I read the rules you had to have a measurement certificate and paid your Association fees before being a memember of the F16 Association.
So in reality I doubt we have enough legitimate members (6) to make up a single National Authority a part from the USA perhaps.
It might be advisable for the GC to make a statement to clarify exactly what rules are and are not being enforced with perhaps a relevant and achievable time table for it's current (members/non members)to try to adhere to.
I'm aware that the GC are working hard to achieve ISAF recognition but as I have pointed out above I think they need to work on the basics first. There's a saying 'you can't run before you can walk' Perhaps the GC should re consider their priorities in regard to today's F16 sailors, racers.
Sure, not matching the cert means that there might be some cheating going on, whereas what we really care about is whether the boat is a class legal F16.
For example, if a boat weighs in at 1kg under its cert because it wasn't completely dry when measured, do we care? I say, not unless it makes the difference between being above or below class minimum weight.
In order to prove either you've got to measure the boat, and I don't see how proving non-conformance with the cert is any simpler than proving non-conformance with the rules.
Proving non-conformance with a certificate lends weight to the notion that an incident of cheating is deliberate rather than accidental as it suggests that the owner has gone out of their way to produce an inaccurate certificate, but I don't believe that proving intentions is relevant.
Paul
Paul
The intent is that it is the responsability of each racer to make sure their boat is compliant to the rules.
Having a cert does some good in forcing each owner to make sure this is so.
I completely agree with Paul though, that any protest should be about confirming the boat measures within the rules and having a cert will do nothing to reduce protests, or make them easier to sort if lodged.
It is a very nice vehicle for the MAN to use to apply their taxes though. $75 dollar ISAF stickers,, fees for cert registration etc.
It is a big stretch of the imagination to try and equate any certification process to equality or fairness in racing - just bureacracy.
Dude! You should be hyping Kelly Park. Nobody has given Ding a boot to the nuts in a couple of months.
Make it a rule that the protesting party must pay the measurement fee if the boat measures compliant to the box rules...make the owner pay the measuring fee if the boat measures non-compliant to the box rules.
A very simple fix, for a very simple problem.
Look fellas, making **** up as you go along is not clever. It appears that the GC is attempting to make the class ISAF. if that's what you guys want then you have to follow thier rules not to mention the rules of the class.
If you rock up to a measurement protest, you WILL need a measurement certificate. If the boat doesn't have a measurement certificate then it DOES NOT MEASURE. Even if the boat is within the rules. Full stop no more arguments. Your personal opinions are of little to no value.
Listen everybody,
The measurement certificate is part of the F16 class rules and has been since the very beginning. You can't unilaterally decide to not adhere to that principle.
Now, I agree that the current EU procedures around the measuring are unsatisfactory, but that can never be an excuse to abandon the principle completely.
I feel the F16 class should arrange for official measuring of boats (on appointment !) at major events at no costs or reduced costs. I for one got burned badly myself last time I payed a 100 bucks for a measurement certificate and will be very supportive of a free-of-charge measurement procedure. If we all want a free-of-charge system then we'll have one, it is simply that simple.
With respect to the role of a measurement certificate. It guarantees that the boat has been in a full compliant mode at least ones in its life time thus forcing every owner to initially spend money on getting full-compliant components. If he still wants to cheat then he needs to spend ADDITIONAL money. Also, the RC can now always demand that the boat be restored to its original form knowing that the compliant components are around / had been around. This makes for a lot stronger case to enforce full compliance without any claims made to
sad stories
. The certificate also has important political benefits. One of which is the fact that owner actively declared his boat to be fully-compliant (and was checked for it). This makes the charge of cheating alot more powerful when the boat is later found to be none compliant. Without the certificate the owner can always claim that he didn't know. With a certificate he can't. Note in this example that the rules explicetly state that any new (measureable) item that is replaced requires a remeasuring (of that item) and that doing so is the responsibility of the owner. Thus it creates an environment where the responsibilty of the owner is made very clear. Another important aspect is to make sure the suppliers are delivering on spec products. The Central class organisation gethers the measured data (perferable when the boat is completely new) and can present the suppliers with accurately measured off-sets and easily show a trend. The supplier has then no choice but to quickly improve the situation or risk losing his F16 related business. This is not academic as such a thing has already happened in the past with sails for example.
I won't adress all related issues in this post, but there is more to the whole measuring principle then just making the lives of the owners difficult. So everyone is kindly ask to comply with this and stop being only focussed on your own specific situation.
Wouter
ISAF ?
Ever since the Tornado got dumped, I have absolutely no interest in seeing the F16 class get ISAF certified.
Thus I feel that that policy can just as well be terminated altogether now.
It is pretty stupid to pay good money to an organisation that doesn't
recognize you
in any meaningful way.
So what that we can't have an official
World Championship
? Seems we are pretty happy with our
Global Challenge Cups
anyway.
We can spend that money alot more wisely on projects that actually do advance the F16 class as a whole.
Wouter
last I looked, I believe, there were enough boats in the Australian get together to make the class a
National
class..
To accomplish this the class needs boats representing at least 3 state fleets and a specified number of boats.. Both were accomplished this year. So Australia would join USA as a
National Authority
...
That is good! Here in the UK there must be around 40 F16's approx six are paid members and I doubt ONE has a F16 measurement certificate. Thus we are definitely not entitled to National Authority status. The point I was getting to is that being a paid member of the Association isn't enough you should have a measurement cert as well before being able to join and only these figures should account to NA status.
Contact those 40 boat owners and ask their opinions. Specifically, invite them to a U.K. regatta, or regional regattas if necessary. But get them on the water together and ask their opinions.
Are you letting a piece of paper stifle class growth?
Mark, in order to have a measurement certificate you need a national authority to stamp it. In order to have a national authority you need member with certificates. I don't think that works <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
Pete, we've been trying to get those sailors on the water, but it's HARD. At my club we have 12 F16 in the parking lot. This year so far only 5 did race, and most of them only once.
And that's not specific to our class, really, of the 60-70 odd cats in our boat park you can count how many do race at least one race per year on your hands...
And then you talk about travelers, people willing to take a week-end to go to an event somewhere and the number are dropping spectacularly. Maybe 2 this year in the F16 class, 5-6 total across all cat fleets...
Any suggestion on how to get those people onto the water are welcome.
We probably need to go over to the F16 private forum.
Do people give any indication of why they don't race? Do they sail fairly frequently even though they don't race? Do some perhaps feel intimidated by the idea of racing and concerned that they might be embarrassed if they perform poorly?
Your comment on the other thread about coaching may be relevant. Perhaps just having a session where you do some training drills on the water and/or some low key, fun practice races in conjunction with some social/family event might help people see the connection between racing and the social aspect of sailing.
Mostly there are people who enjoy sailing but can't or won't do it often enough to be interested in knowing the RRS. In addition they mostly seem afraid of embarrassing themselves, being in the way of someone screaming and so on. At the end all they do is reach around, capsize a bit, bring the kids or a friend for a couple hours on the water.
Then there are people who do all the RYA training courses, obviously enjoy it, but don't jump the gap and join the racing. This is due to the gap between the RYA training done at the club on Topaz/Vibe/Dart/Hobie and the racing where none of those classes are represented. They put on some
begin racing
courses but not one person registered for those...
Finding the magical tricks to get those two group of people to race is tricky.
So we have a number of initiatives, ranging from getting people into racing via crewing first with an established racer, special loaner boat only for racing or
fun
races with mostly beginners where we spend time explaining the rules and flags
Pete, I don't have the details of all the present owners. However, I have in the past sent out emails to all the owners who I have addresses for prior to Mumbles Events but that is a tiny number perhaps around 11 and yet the most recent Stealth was sail No 561 (They started at 500). It's a shame that recently apart from Paul, John Terry, Eric (Pepin), Wayne and myself F16's would basically be seen as a dead Class, especially now that some of the original Datchet F16 sailors have basically retired.
We are not the only Cat Class in the UK which suffers this problem. In the past the F20 started to grow then died away. The Spitfires grew dramatically and now their numbers are falling, on the other hand The A Class numbers appear to be on the increase but we are still only talking about a handful of boats.
You are definitely right about one thing. Pursuading every owner to attend the same Regatta perhaps on a bi-annual basis and not necessarily a National Championships. As you suggest this could help develop friendships and a better understanding of the owners views in regard to UK F16's.
Last weekend there was a F16 TT at Rutland Water SC, only one entered and he is a member there. The weather was brilliant the wind a little shifty and some of the gusts must have been in excess of 22 knots and hit you like a train. I was there racing on an 'A". Friday was a training day and I capsized, the third race on Saturday I capsized and the sixth race on Sunday which I was leading I capsized! I now reckon if there was a Capsize Championship I could be a top favorite to win.
That must be really frustrating! Still all you can do is try and gather a basic fleet and sail. I would contact all the active cat sailors you can and promote a combined sailing fleet. 10-15 boats is a lot of fun no matter what type they are.
GYC sails twice each month, nine months of the year and it is usually a mixed fleet of around 10 boats. <img src="<>/blush.gif" alt="blush" title="blush" height="15" width="15" />I have to admit to being AWOL recently.
I wouldn't worry about certificates and the like until you have a more active fleet.