Class business

Which part?

Which part?

ALL of it.

AND, you should add a rule that says you cannot kick off your crew DURING a race or pick up a crew DURING a race. <img src=

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AND, to add another minor complication, if the F16's are racing as a class in a multiple class event that charges a different entry fee for singlehanders vs. doublehanders, because they are providing food and/or T-shirts for each participant, and if an F16 registers as a singlehander and then later adds crew, do they they have to pay the additional entry fee? <img src=

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Definitely.

Pete,

Having just come back from competing in this event and being a F16 owner, I kind of find offense in this post.

Many crews who would be perfect for the F16 have have stayed with the F18 becuase of the

racing

. In Europe this appears to be the class if you race. This was pushed in the US and many very serious teams do compete F18. I consider my racing seriously, but have no allusions that I could race with Gina on an F18 and be competitve with Tomko/Billings, Pitt/Shaffer, etc. 90% of the boats we have sold have been to beginner/intermediate racers. They did not buy the boat to be top of the racing circuit. Most's enthusiasm and improvement (including yourself) has been remarkable. Since there is not any money in this for most of us anyway, for myself and I would beleive most others, the social aspect and the pure fun of sailing is just as important as the racing.

Most of the world uses a different handicap number than the US and they typically place the F18 and F16 much closer in performance. The US is results based, and will eventually change with more participation. For now why in the world would you want change a favorable number if you do race handicap? This is a huge selling point for racing an F16 in the US.

The Cap was a very nice boat to sail. It was a bitch moving on land and lacked the responsivness of the F16 on the water. Even though Seth and I had never sailed together and took a DNS and a DNF I felt our boat speed was very competitive with the group all week. Comparing this to how we race on our 16 I still feel the 2 different designs are relatively comaparable in overall speed around the race course. In a distance (not upwind/downwind) type event, the extra volume length and weight would be preferable over the shorter 16, but most of these guys are running 20s in the US anyway for the same reason.

For potential, there is a lot more opporunity for female crews, youth, mixed, and smaller teams on the F16. The top F18 racing group will not ever look at the F16 anyway. A few may move over if there becomes a large racing cicuit, but aiming at that is waist of time and not what the F16 is about anyway. The F18 may still present themselves as

serious racers

, but in our area, there is no one left. After JC goes to Europe, we have 2, Ding and Olli. I am going to the race for the party and to see my friends and enjoy my time on the water. I've raced years on the H16, arguably the most competitive 1 design cat class in the world, I own a wave also pushed for the race scene. I have also owned and raced at least 10 other cat classes. I realy enjoy my F16 more than any other boat I have owned or raced. It will not be the same for everyone, and I would never try to claim so.

Now back to feeding the Trolls - Waterboy <img src=

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I agree!! Doesn't make sense for the F16 sailors to want a lower number.

I’m not sure why you would find Pete’s post offensive.

If you guys want to switch crews, configuration, sails, hardware, or modify any rule you want within your own class then go nuts, but if you are racing in the open fleet you know as well as I do that it is extremely unfair and will drive people away from racing. The argument that you’ll have perfectly sailable boats sitting on the beach because you can’t switch configurations is bogus and self serving.

Matt anybody that goes to the Alter Cup is taking it “very seriously”. If you’re not taking it seriously why would you be there?

The 07 and 08 AC results show that the F16 number needs to be addressed. I know this hurts one of the selling points of the boat and takes money out of the builder’s pocket, but it’s the right thing to do for the sport.

Dave

Mark S. - This is why DPN sucks!

Ding, how can you claim that

Based on the 07 and 08 Alter Cup results, the F16 number needs to be addressed

? Were there also F16's racing against F18's at either venue? Were the race courses and wind exactly the same at both venues? By what measurement are you using to compare the two? Feel? <img src=

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/> You would have to run say 5 Blades against 5 Caps. swap boats after each race, do that about 10 times in all kinds of wind, and then look at the results to have any idea how the two compare, oh, and keep times on each race as well. Until that day comes, we will keep our rating.

Guys,

I am certain there are set procedures to change a PY number. If somebody feel the current number is not correct, no amount of discussion here will change the PY number. This is not a F16 class business matter as I see it, but a Portsmouth issue. If somebody want it to change, submit the necessary regatta results and let the Portsmouth committee do their work.

My opinions only:
I think that if you are sailing a F16 only event (or a F16 class within an Open regatta), then there is more flexibility of teaming up (with on person being marked DNC) in bad weather. In that case it is up to the organizing body of that regatta (and hopefully the other competitors). A good example is the Gulfport Invitational in 2007 and 2008.

Any time sailing in an Open fleet, I think you should sail as you registered for the entire regatta. It is just plain wrong to ditch a crew when the wind is light.

Rumors:
The D-PN (and wind rated factors) may change when ALL the results from 2007 (and 2006 <img src=

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Carry on.......

Matt may disagree with me, but I don't particularly see a favorable number as a selling point. I think a number that indicates performance close to F18 with 70 fewer kgs would be a bigger selling point. So a lower number would be a good thing. But I also agree that the normal Portsmouth process should be allowed to take its course.

??? Ding,

DPN in any form will always be a source of argument.

Nobody has said anything about changing configurations etc. The rules for racing are set and they are basicaly the same as in any other class.

I

race

seriously and try may hardest everytime I am on the water. I am not going to be able to race with Gina and be competitive in the F18 class. I am not going to pick up another crew who would be able to handle the boat, just to race in the F18 class. (she would kick my butt). I can race class when there are enough boats, and I can race DPN and be relatively competitive with a number of other similarly rigged boats. If I am on the water I am trying to win boat for boat with whoever is near me be it an F18 or a H16. It makes no difference to me the handicap. There is only 1 race a year where it matters anyway (The qualifier)

Like Timbo said, this event shows nothing about the relative merrit on the current numbers. The Alter cup is about the sailors and the best get on the boat and figure it out the fastest. People who have one of the boats being sailed do not ususally do that well. This is because the boats are not set up the same as their own. I can sail my own boat much faster becuase it is set up for me and I have the time on it to know the feel to keep it moving. I get on another and my head is in the boat as I am not sailing by feel and my strategy goes by the way side. The best teams get

the feel

right away. We were beating the Puerto Ricans early in the evnet and they were beating everyone late. JC got on the 16 last year and figured out the boat spead first and won the event. It is about the sailors not the boat - Remember.

If you want to talk about money in builders pockets, come talk to me, it is not doing this. My involvement here is for the cat sailing. Anyway isn't it about time you flopped classes again <img src=

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Well, I've done this for the last two F16 Nations Cups, but I've always declared my configuration for each day months in advance, well before forecasts could hope to give a clue as to

favourable

configurations.

I wouldn't expect non-F16 events to allow this, but otherwise I think it should be at the discretion of the event organisers.

Paul

Exactly; IMO what you did was right and was allowed; you declared in advance that this was happening and it was allowed.

You and Gina were specifically excluded from the

non-competitive

category. I took it to mean myself and perhaps a few others. In my case the shoe fits so no complaining here, although I do plan to put a little more effort into it.

Context is everything. Had you been in the conversation, I don't believe you would have taken offense.

I like the weight and versatility of the F16. The F18 was never a consideration for me.

There were a number of people at Alter Cup who's opinions I respect. Not all of them agree. The opinion I've adopted as my own is that the F16 is very nearly as fast as the F18, upwind; and about 5% slower downwind, given equal crew weight and ability. IMO, the numbers should reflect this.

Those who buy the F16 because of a favorable number will abandon the class when a similar opportunity avails. As a class, we should be trying to attract those who favor the F16 for its strengths; performance, versatility and weight.

I don't agree that any of the first or second parts are complicated. It is a decision that has to be made for each regatta, but it doesn't have to be complicated.

You can't kick your crew off during a race under the current ISAF rules. There's no need to make a new rule. <img src=

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If the crew doesn't want the food or shirt then there is no need for them pay the extra. If they want it, they pay for it, shirts and food are usually always available during regattas. Also, I think changing/adding/removing crews during regattas is rude, to the crew and other competitors, without justifiable reasons.