F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymond)

Its more expensive to build an F18 at 180kg than it is to do it at 165kg..

The original F18 was I think a KL. I seem to recall there was even a Hurricane 5.9 cut down to measure. The 180Kg was I believe put there to contain costs. It allows boats to be overbuilt and other than step changes in hull development boats through expected replacements/maintenance can remain competitive for many years. By taking this conservative construction approach the class has thrived. Yes construction changes are possible but what is the point if it adds cost and starts to alienate people who are sailing 10 year old boats. To my mind the F16 is compromised by its insistence on level rating the one and two man versions. If you not F16 'fleet' racing what is the point! Many of the boats will actually carry a handicap penalty for being classed as an F16 unless they are optimised.
F18 - works
F16 - born out of changing existing boats
F104 - brings numerous boats together

I would be more tempted to go F104 than F16, not for design excellence but for racing opportunities.

Cheshirecatman

Is this the normal way of most discussion.

One of the founders of the F16 class defining it.

People with close links to other manufactures attacking it.

If you do not like the class, why not keep posting on a f16 forum.

There must be forums for the f104,f18,and tornado somewhere.

John,

I was not attacking the class in any way.

I was simply pointing out a gross error on Wouters part. He made a claim that was patently untrue and now he refuses to proove his claim even though I have asked several times now.

The internet is a funny place, anyone can make claims about anything but when they are asked to show proof they go quiet on the issue... Kind of shows what kind of people they are doesn't it.

Oh dear, all sorts of long and lengthy posts are going to be unleashed now.

From my hazy memory, when F16 came about it looked at existing hi-performance 16ft cats (ie Taipan and the Stealth) and looked at ways to equalise performance and create a level playing ground. This meant that new designs had a basis to look at, rather than competing on design and being same same but different (had to throw that in, been in asia for a while). But F16 went down the path similar to F18 in trying to ensure all boats meet a certain

box

. This

box

is different in many ways to other

boxes

which makes the class more or less attractive to different sailors.

F104 from what I can see is to move some of the parameters of the box around, but saying you must rate in this band to join our group, but we are flexible on this and that.

Each horses for courses and could be endless hours of internet debate. But end of day, lets promote sailing and go out and do it. I know that this weekend will do a passage race on Sat and Sun round bits of Singapore. Lining up one girl to take for a sail afterwards as she is getting the sailing buzz. What are you guys doing?

Hey guys ( and rumour has it that includes Sue ) sorry but at the end of my sailing day which would I sooner push up the slip way, my F16 at 104kgs or a F17 at 159kgs, no contest really. I sold my Nacra 5.2 built in 1986 which weighed trimed down to solo sailing around 150kgs for that very reason, great boat, what a pain to move around on your own. <img src=

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Personally speaking, I'm quite happy to quote Macca to interested parties that the F17's are 159 kg even when I know several were measured to be (around) 135 kg's when fully rigged.

Actually, I find this whole situation quite amusing. For once I claim the nacra 17's to be better then what is commonly accepted and Macca is still pissed at me ? Go figure ! <img src=

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Wouter

We have been here before, and not long ago, so could we please stop feeding the trolls before we get a full repetition.

Yeah, I know, this is my boat now and I feel the pain <img src=

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Macca,
I find your statement very interesting, since most Infusions weigh quite a bit more than the 180KG baseline (or most other F18 brands for that matter).
For instance, the boat sailed by Franck Cammas weights in at 187.2KGs.
Link to french F18 measurement certificates: http://www.f18.fr/jauge.php?page=4&

Hey Pepin we all take pity on you and help push the Nacra up the slipway for you <img src=

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/> <img src=

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/> <img src=

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/>still a good boat even after all these years. Even had a 80's name Lilo Lil when I first bought it ( her ). <img src=

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Steve,

Personally I think you are way off track & I will just agree to disagree with you.

Marcus

Gee that one takes the cake.....Macca, I know you are smart - but that has to be the dumbest comment you have made to date.

Obviously you have never built a set of hulls - just bolted them to beams.

<img src=

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I would rather push my 85kg, 1966 designed, Mosquito up the ramp actually and then spend only 20 minutes unrigging it. <img src=

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/> Catamaran design hasn't progressed much in 42 years when you compare actual speeds around the race course.

Sailing is fun, obsessing about tiny details is not,

Darryn
Mosquito
1782

I'll see your 85kg and lower it to 75! (and waiting for new 30kg one)

An A class and a Moth perhaps?

I apologise in advance if this offends anyone but what a really pointless discussion this mostly is!
None of you really KNOW what is and what isn’t when it comes to the “why” any certain class of cat is, or whether or not it only “resembles” another class or whether or not that other class was used as a basis for its design. Most classes that sail today are mostly the result of “design by evolution” meaning that they are the results of previous ideas of other classes/types of cats that have been applied (in most cases) by small incremental, alterations/additions. The Taipan has been used as an example of the forerunner of the F16 here but did you know that the first Taipan was the result of taking the bow from off of a 16’ Mosquito hull and joining it to the aft half of the then current style A class hull? – What does that make the Taipan – a Mos-A? Or Perhaps an Amoss??
When for example you start to adamantly declare that this cat or that cat were the ones that the F16 or the F18 were based on you had better be very sure of your chronological history of catamarans or you can easily be shot down in flames if you are not accurate. Did you know that in the very early 1980’s (l980 and 81) we designed, built, sailed and commercially sold the Alpha Omega 5m and 5.5m cats? The 5m was designed to be sailed one up with a Tornado mast section as cat rigged with spinnaker, and two up sloop rigged with spinnaker well before the first Taipan (or F16) hit the water? The configuration/ measurements of the 5m Alpha fits almost exactly the measurements of the current F16, apart from the weight as the 5m Alpha was “of its day” and as a consequence heavier than the current minimum weight of the F16 and as there was extremely great resistance from cat sailers then to having a spinnaker on a cat (it was considered almost sacrilege) we later deleted the spinnaker as an option. Does this mean that the F16 was/is a direct copy of the Alpha Omega 5 metre?? Similarly our 5.5 metre Alpha still DOES, today fit precisely within the F18 measurements and rules, from the weight, the mast height, the main sail area, the jib area and the area of the spinnaker, etc, etc, and this is a cat that we sold for the first time in 1981. Could we not then say that the F18’s of today are all just copies of those Alpha Omega 5.5m?
In 1983 I attended a formal meeting of sailers where the main discussion on the agenda was the potential of forming formula 16, formula 18, and formula 20 International associations and of defining the measurements and rules for such classes. All the proposals at that meeting were, to all intents and purposes the same as those rules measurements and regulations that define both the F16 and F18 classes now. Does that mean that someone stole the minutes from that meeting and used them as their own to form the current F16 and F18 association? I am quite sure that there are a lot of people who were later involve, in one way or another, with the formation of both the F16 and F18 who through direct contact or through contact with people who were familiar – even remotely – with the “politics” of those times and of the Alpha Omega’s, who have been influenced, no matter how little or how distantly, by the Alphas (particularly) of that earlier time. This is of course what occurs when anyone “design/builds” any new boat/cat. No one ever starts from scratch. They are influenced directly and indirectly by what has gone before, they will always “borrow” either heavily or lightly from ideas of other designs that they feel will make their boat better – if they didn’t the only new boat that would ever come out from some one designing from scratch without the advantage of “accumulated’” knowledge, would probably be a floating log with a few cut marks in it. (And some idiot would say, “What’s it rate? While someone else equally stupid would say, “its overweight anyway”)
Does it really matter where, why, or how any of these classes came about, surely it is better just to enjoy them all while you are still able too? Remember – death is so permanent and so soon upon us all – (and lots of time not sailing to)

No worries Marcus, agree to disagree. We both could be right, wrong or a little of both.

Profit margins should (to an extent) always come into it. If they could sell more at 165, then they would. I am sure they could lose a little weight for little or no extra cost (The class is nearly a decade and a half old now), but would de-stabilise the class resulting in less sales and less profit for them.

I would have loved a 165 kg F18 before I bought my boat (providing I had 165 kg F18s to race against).... But would be very pissed if they decide to drop the weight of the F18 now and the majority of the F18 sailors would be the same. I would imagine a lot of current members will walk away and future members would be very shaky.

I could not care less about the manufactures (no offence) as long as they keep making the boats. I have raced boats weighing 180, 170, 155 kg as well as light weights from 107kg to 75kg.

From 180 (F18) to 155 (Tornado), I have found little difference handling them on land with 2 people.

The lightweight boats are easier to handle on land, but I would not race one with the same crew I race the F18/Ts with. On the lighter boats, I would have a much lighter crew who would not offer anywhere near the same strength to handle the boat..... Or I would do it all myself.

One thing that surprises me in OZ is how most of the light weight sailors (except A Class), throw away most of their advantage by using crap beach wheels. Eurotrax or Cattrax are a little pricey, but cheaper the a chiropractor.

Darryl,

You are absolutly correct, but..........

Please use parragraphs <img src=

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Ok so if there is a measurement certificate of an F17 that weighed 135KG how about you post it? Or are you still trying to find it....?

Actually its pretty funny that the F17 weighs 159kg and it still beat the first F16 over the line at Texel by 22 mins. and you have stated that there is not much difference in sail area between the two boats but there is more than 50kgs difference in boat weight!! I guess your lightweight smaller hull theory that you rave on about all the time isn't woring out so good now is it?

That is assuming that that F16 in question was at

class

weight... maybe if it was heavier and had its rating adjusted accordingly then it would have fared better on handicap?

Actually you are doing the F17 a great service here, the boat is similar in sail area and size to the F16 and yet it is a lot heavier and still it outperforms the F16 in the worlds biggest cat race. I'm not pissed at you, I'm thanking you! Keep up the good work <img src=

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/> do you want commission on all the F17's that get sold in Europe this year?

just for personal interest...

Would enjoy seeing pictures of the AO 5 & AO 5.5 posted..

Also where was the meeting you spoke about? Would be interesting to document all this for future generations.. That is if Cat sailing lasts into future generations..

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Macca you rattle off on this forum like you are the only informed person that exists. <img src=

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/> Did you realise that you are comparing a full body abled person (Adrian) against a fellow (Geert) who had a motorbike accident years ago & literally has the use of one arm only.....Geert did a hell of a job if you ask me.

Why dont you try & tie your arm behind your back & finish where Geert did.

Oh hang on that might be a bit hard given where you foot is right now. <img src=

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The appropriate places for the different topics in this thread is..

Open forum: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=Test
F18 forum: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=F18
F17 forum: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=Formula17

That is, if you really want to discuss like this.