If you were to build an f16...

Rolf,

Having them on a a boat at an event such as the GC would be meaningless as far as an evaluation of their potential benefit.

What is needed to prove in the concept is 2 boat testing with identical equipement and rotation of sailors. Testing over a wide range of conditions and settings.

If I can mange to win the lottery maybe it would be a fun thing to try....Then again if I could spend that much time on the water, I know for a fact that my performance would improve way more than any gain a foil could provide for me.

Matt didn't Darryl do exactly what you are proposing on the F14 A&O with positive proof of the validity of the T-foils?...That is, didn't he do comparison sailing of two identical boats...one with T-foils and one without?

Regards,
Bob

Matt, I agree with what you say.
I think racing gear is darwinistic in its nature. If T-foils are faster, we will see them on more and more boats and at our larger events. If they are not faster, or faster only in some conditions, they will not make it.
Darwinism is based on mutation, and the T-foils certainly are a mutation. If the mutation gives advantages, it will survive, if not it dies. However, if the mutation gives a real advantage, the species with this mutation will do much better in the competition. That's the logic behind the GC comment. Somebody gets it right and launch it in our faces at a GC. Odds are against it, but you never know. Ben Hall tried it at Islamorada with his wing, while the Boulogne brothers won an F-18 worlds in 2003 with their square top main (at least I think that was a big part of why they won). Same for the swedes final position at the 2002 Tornado worlds in Marthas vineyard with their then radically flat spi, which now are the class standard. Sorry for being long winded..

Looking forward to see what Robi has to say on what Timbo asked. I assume Robi is looking for the best possible boat within budget?

How many attempts do you think I invested in my F16 ? <img src=

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Ohh I understand now Marcus, you are refering to a setup I placed on this forum several months back. In this thread I'm just talking about permanently fixed T-foils to a standard EU Blade rudder board. Basically the angle of attack of the T-foils is set to somewhere between -2 and 0 degrees with the boat right on its optimal waterline. So when the boat is sailed at low speed or on its waterline then the T-foils won't add much drag at all. There are no moving parts anymore, the two screws used to fit the T-foil to the rudderboard are also used to fine-tune the angle of attack to the -2 to 0 degrees range. Ones set up the gaps are filled with filler and resin and the whole setup is fixed.

I don't see this as very expensive or difficult to manufacture. It is basically the standard EU Blade rudder boards with a T-foil bolted to its tip. It uses all the same hardware as the conventional rudder would.

Wouter

I actually raced a F16 with T-foils a few times and I know what kind of difference they can make. I've done some extensive modelling on them and again the benefits for my boat are undeniable.

Basically I know what I know and these T-foils are allowed in the F16 class, so what's up !

Besides I don't think there is any rule preventing tinkerers like myself from posting their thoughts, experiments and showing their enthousiasm. If that is intepreted by others as

pushing a concept

or

insinuating that F16's are not optimized

then that is really not a fault on my part.

If I hadn't tinkered with the 3-stage cascading internal downhaul then we would still be pulling our arms out with little sail response. Hell, we wouldn't even have a F16 class at all.

Sorry guys, I think we are getting a little bit to tight in our mindsets here.

Wouter

This thread turned to crap because of all the T foil chatter.

I am not getting T foils because of various reasons. The main reason is the exchange rate does not make this an attractive upgrade to consider, unless of course I win the lotto but first I would have to play to win.

Robi, back on topic, re. the title of this thread; you might want to check with the F16 builders for parts, they might sell them to you for what they pay when they buy in bulk, and then you can put your boat together how you like.

But Robi, what are you really looking for? Ultimate boat or a less costly boat? Or??

Tim those are my intentions. Hopefully this boat will be ready for St Patrick's day.

Not ultimate or less costly but mostly personalized. <img src=

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/> Cost is no factor up to certain point.

A Landenberger main is extremely expensive due to the exchange rate. I am still waiting on a local US distributor to see how much more or less it will cost me to purchase such a mainsail.

-Hopefully??- You had BETTER have that thing ready by St. Patrick's Day! It's going to be a big F16 regatta in your own back yard!! So, what are you going to build? Blade hulls? Carbon mast? Call Jay Glasser for a new main.

Tim, im not building anything, more like assembling it all together.

Are you going to sail it mostly solo? I think a landenberger main CUT FOR UNI is probably the way to go. I think you have to talk a US sailmaker into redesigning the main on the F16 for a purely UNI mode. As much as I can't stand the FAD, someone said he commented on the mains on the uni F16s being too full and I think he is right on (when comparing our sails to 18HT uni sails, the N17, etc). Of course this leads to the whole uni vs 2-up main... blah blah blah. Whether it makes a difference or not... who knows.

I think you will have a blast setting things up the way you want... send me a pm or give me a ring if I can help with anything.

p.s. carbon mast? definately too expensive given today's climate but I think one would be great on the blade.

If I went your route and more or less

made

my own boat... hmmm.... high ratio daggers, and maybe a different shape rudder than what comes standard on the blade. ... definate UNI main, figure a way to remove all the 2-up stuff easily so you don't have to have all the extra stuff on when sailing solo. Maybe some torpedo tubes also... just under the waterline in the bows... could aim your bows at the FAD and take him out... all he would feel woudl be a little

pop

and then start going really slow (watch him kick our butt anyway though even with one hull full of water <img src=

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/> ) They could still be useful for taking out anyone who crosses your bows too closely <img src=

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Yeah Patrick, im going 100% uni. Trying to get a flatter landy mainsail will be a project all in itself. Plus serious $$$$ is involved.

Why settles for this

When I can settle for this

Those who are into cars might get it. But im LOLing over here! hahahahhaha

fair comment robi. I would of thought that Glasser would be able to make exactly what you want as he has very good knowledge of A class sails and they are not that different.A sail at around $1300 USD is not a bad price.I have found eBay a good source for brand new parts at 50% off.good luck with new boat hope to see pic soon.

Danny
Taipan F16

I inquired at Glaser about a uni cut F16 sail and kind of got the

all our sails are cut to F16 standards and are great for 1-up or 2-up sailing, computer generated, yada yada yada

. They did not seem real interested in a flatter 1-up sail. I didn't push the point, but just kinda shrugged it off. Their website talks about A-Cat sails cut to crew weight and mast type, but the F16 section talks about a standard cut from Bill Gates.

Rumor has it that Smyth has a wing mast section from our friends in Titusville and might be building sails... I wonder if he...... nah, nevermind. Forget I said anything..... It was complete rumor....

I got the same from Glaser also....
In their defense, their main is flatter than my Ullman and is nicely depowered easily. I do like it and I probably wouldn't be able to utilize the possible performance difference anyway.

And I think Smyth has had that mast for a long time...

Why don't you try Ashby sails he makes what you want and he has been making Taipan,F16 and A class sails. Ashby normally asked
your weight, type of mast section, if it's a uni cut sail and what material you want it made out off. The sail are around $1550.00 AUS plus battens and freight. Gary has one of his sails and could give you more detail.

True, I PMed Gary and I PMed Phill asking about the Ashby main. I did send an email to Glen Ashby (from his website) but I assume he would be extremely busy to reply.

What are all the possible mast supplier options?

These are all I can think of...

Aluminium
- Taipan section from AHPC
- Blade section from Blade builders

Carbon
- Saarberg
- Fibrefoam
- Home build

I'd love a carbon one but where can I get them in Australia.

Ncik
The Blade and Taipan are both the same section I believe they both come from AHPC.

Robbie Daniel is importing (or already has) an AHPC Viper F16 with a carbon mast and it's headed your way (St. Pete). Notice that Robbie's F18 Capricorn banner ad at the top of this forum also says

F16 Viper

.

If another container is headed to the USA maybe you could get one of those masts (or any other AHPC parts you'd like).

Fiberfoam both Ashby and AHPC
Sarberg you can contact Steve Brewin

Robi my brother got a Goodall sail made took 2 weeks from phone call to delivery. I have used the sail and it very good i'm 80kg and sail uni.

Any way of getting one in Australia?

Get 9 other F16 owners together and John_P will give you a very good price shipped to Aus. He's said it many times....

John Pierce and his Stealth Marine seem to deliver fantastic value for money. Why dont he market his products a bit more? I tried finding a breakdown on products and prices on stealthmarine.co.uk, but there wasn't much there. A cleanup on the website and some light marketing would make the products much more available in my opinion.

Back to topic.

Personalized

.. I would definately go with hulls and beams from the same manufacturer. Otherwise you might have to alter the beamseats to make beams fit, which can be a lot of work.
A carbon mast would be high on my list of items to get. I would also have looked at snuffers and whats available there. I do have a penchant for 'center-tube' snuffers like some of the tornados have. They look slick, but I would want one with alu-reinforcement of the opening (dont step on it). IF it was a 2-piece solution it would be even cooler.
T-foils is also something I would think hard about, but lets not go there again. A bit premature still..
For sails I would have looked at the local alternatives once more. You do have Sabre Sails and Calvert there, both supposedly good multihull sailmakers. Why not buy locally and go trough the design process with the sailmaker, on-site? You can have the sails much more

personalized

then. Buying from Landenberger gets you a

stock

sail. Sitting down face to face with a saildesigner, talking about how you sail, where you sail etc. will get you a different sail. You can have the sails buildt in whatever cloth you prefer, and you can get help with the flying shape afterwards..

Other

personalization

could be on the tramp. Having it buildt to your specification, and perhaps with some graphics painted on it? How about an in-boom cascading mainsheet? Thy sky (or rather the budget) is the limit <img src=

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The exchange rate is whats killing importing anything into the US. It is extremely expensive.

As far as the Landenber mainsail goes, I have coconut grove sails. An authorized Landenberger distributor. They are only a phone call away. I will talk to them about a uni cut mainsail.

A carbon mast now that is sexy! <img src=

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/> we'll see. <img src=

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Ahh, but Robi, a distributor will not be able to customize the sail for you, and you will not get direct access to the designer, or watch your sail being buildt. All valuable points in my opinion if you want personalization?

Too bad about your exchange rate problems. I dearly hope the US economy comes back on track really fast. Our own economy is tied closely to yours.

If you really want a carbon mast but are worried about shipping from offshore or exchange rates, call Ben Hall, Hall Spars, he races A cats and his company builds many carbon masts. Since a F16 Uni is very near an A cat, he should be able to figure out what you need for a mast and build you one. If it catches on, we all may buy one, so use that marketing idea to temper his price if you can.

Of course, he could build you a full wing sail for about $2,000 acording to his own posts. That would be much cheaper than a carbon mast and new mainsail.

No no, Robi could build a wing for about US$2000, if he has the skills and equpment of Ben Hall <img src=

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