Increased weight

A couple of days ago.

No

I guess he's stepping down because their seemingly is a movement afoot to increase minimum weight.

I can't see that it matters to anyone but the uni sailors and we are a vanishing breed. Hopefully any change would include grandfathering for existing boats.

The major manufacturers are trying to push this through..

I'm sure. But does it matter for the sloops, which constitute the vast majority?

The boutique builders will still build a superior product but with a heavier minimum they will simply be more robust.

What are the reasons? Cost? Durability? I do not get the emails anymore, but can the email be posted (or is it class info only)?

I saw his post on the class website. Since it is a class issue I suggest any discussion be kept over there.

I certainly can respect that. Hope it works out best for the class.

Let me see if I understand this correctly:

* F16 Class has a rule for minimum boat weight
* All manufacturers are aware of this rule
* Some manufactures can't, or won't, build their boats to this rule
* Therefore,

these

manufacturers (stated in this thread as *all*) want to increase the minimum boat weight so as not to be *disadvantaged*

And we think that's fair?

okay I'll go check out the F16 Class Forum.

this was predicted years ago.. Its very very sad and a bad reflection on the manufacturers.

(stated in this thread as *all*) Where? I certainly did not say all.

There are 2 issues..
1st is the cost of addressing warranty issues on lightly built boats so the heavier the less claims.
2nd is the retooling cost.. if the weight of the class is increased then it will potentially create costs for the builders who are already building at minimum.. new extrusions for eg.

I don't think anyone has weighed a boat in more than two years so I doubt if any are min. weight. The Viper is known to be over minimum and it hasn't hurt the boats performance or sales.

My interest had always been keeping the boat's weight low for ease of movement on the beach so that it would be attractive to single handed sailors but the demand just doesn't seem to be there. Besides, Karl seems to be the most active single hander and he doesn't seem to have any problem with his Viper.

I suspect this will become a non-issue.

I read the post from Hans on the F-16 forum. It is in the open forum so everybody can read it.

I have more questions after reading the message than before. But I have to wonder what this means

I will direct resign my job as President of the class and give the job back.

Give the job back to who? I choose to understand this as a resignation from Hans and that the class will have to elect a new president at the next AGM.

About the discussion on increasing weight. This is no surprise. The last iteration of the class rules before they where changed to be ISAF compliant had a safeguard on this. Under these rules (which are now gone) there were a 5 year (?) period where only emergency changes could be done to the rules. This is now down to a one year notice period I see.

I dont remember if it was 3,4 or 5 years, but at least it was several years. The intention was to stop or at least slow down this exact scenario.
From a verbal report a manufacturer argued that they would build overweight and in a certain amount of time they could more or less control the class rules as their boat owners would be the majority and vote in their own best interest.
As a matter of opinion I dont fear this as long as regular sailors of several brands are part of management in the class.

The section on racing under a rating system indicates that the old discussion on racing as an F16 or an F102 (or whatever the rating system name was) still goes on. The only thing I have to say about that is

Full steam ahead with F16 racing

.

Some insight on management which I have learnt to be true over the last years is that there will always be competing agendas, hidden agendas, backstabbing and idiots around. Dont accept any management position without being prepared to deal with this and in a strong way. Sometimes a leader have to climb into his tank to have his targets reached. Then there will be some damage left behind.. I say it is time to bring out the tank! But even the armour of a tank will not be enough if exposed to fire too long without support and backups.
One other insight is that technically minded (gifted) people often make poor leaders. The killer instinct and motivation to go through social conflicts to reach the objectives are quite often not there (or the tank is blasted off the battlefield).
The right leader makes all the difference in the world when it comes to management.

Macca and I had some really heavy (and sometimes outright bad) discussions about class rules, weight and changes. Perhaps this is one of the decision points for where the class is headed. Will be interesting to see!

Am I to conclude you are offering to fill the position?

My post was very carefully worded to not open that discussion. I am no class member as I have not paid dues while boatbuilding and I dont want that job. I dont currently have room for that job in my life either. Make your own conclusions, but I hope you end up with a

no

<img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" /> Lots of that going around.

I said over a year ago the F16 class will disappear inside private clubs, at least in the U.S. That seems to be happening because they are the only people who care about the class. It will change as they see fit.

Yeah, ask me how many hours I spend in front of the idiot lantern on average for a week.. Typed this up while cooking dinner, just to give you a hint.

If I change jobs I'll seriously consider running.

Just curious where the all the boats come in on the weight spectrum. Looking over older posts, it looks like the weights for 2-up are approximately:
Viper: 130
Falcon: 112
Blade: 107
Taipan: 107
Nacra: ?
Raptor:107 (per website)
Bimare:122 (per website)
Cirrus: ?

I don't remember and I tossed all my notes some time ago.

We weighed Blades and Taipans about two years ago. Only the Taipan came close to min. at about 2 lbs. over.

Fragmentation of the class in open events due to different weights we can live with. If the hotshots race as F16 this issue goes away and additional classes offers additional honors to those who choose to race as one design or under a rating system. No need to worry.

Tampering with class rules to make a lot of boats obsolete and

dumbing down

the class is the real issue.
The intention was to have a high tech class and increasing min weight certainly is not following the founders targets. Increasing min weight is only a move to increase profits. All kind of good intentions can be argued like

making the class accessible to more sailors

,

evening out the playing field

etc. Take this argument to the extreme and we soon can argue about sailing bathtubs with bedsheets for sails becouse it is so even and fair.

In the end the class about sailors, the sailing experience and social interaction, not profits. I definately dont want the targets of the class to change just to increase profits of one or several manufacturers. I would rather keep the experience as it is and support those manufacturers stepping up to the challenge of building to min weight at a reasonable price.

I would never agree to raising minimum weight. Eventually the latest greatest cloth or resin will come out making carbon, or epoxy obsolete.

Next year Pete, I'm all uni. Including nationals.

Then you'd better step up to the Presidency!

Sadly market forces will dictate in the end, the major manufacturers have become the majority and in any democracy the majority should rule.

Whether we disagree that raising the weight simply because it suits the major players in making their boats easier to build and they are able to use components from other ranges to cut the costs down, is beside the point, a majority of F16 boats are now in the 120 - 130kgs bracket and suited to dual crews.

Market forces are all under regulations. That is where a class structure and ideology comes into the picture.

The manufacturers are not an majority. Those who bought their products might be a majority. That will be confirmed or not as part of a potential vote if speculation becomes reality.

I do see a lot of comments and some are done logical wise but not completely valid. Weight is one thing but the reason for the increasing is something different. It is very strange if i would open the **** box here but the reason of my step down is quite logic if you know the details.
Yes i am maybe not the perfect manager but more a technical guy but i do know which step needs to be done before the next step to make a system work. I can tell you all that i have been fighting the last 2 years to keep the class as much as possible in the way as it has been set up by the founders but this struggle was consuming more time which better should have been used in set up of the organization and this was simply not possible.
I build a strong and stiff Raptor in glass/epoxy at this moment below 107kg and the reason why i did try to achieve this is because as a sailor i would always ask a builder for a product to the class rules. I have found out that in the F16 class the majority of sailors are not really asking this from the builders, this is odd in my opinion, and a key element what causes the problem for the F16 class.

Please don't repeat this and give the

Fad

folks more ammo...

You're interpreting this the wrong way. It insures the class will flourish.

Beach catting in the U.S. is dead. Those classes who are adopted into formal settings will continue to grow for a long time. Those that don't are done. A class being the possible exception.