Increased weight

that makes me feel a little better... thanks for the clarification

If all the manufacturers make boats at 120kgs then only boats can be purchased at 120kgs and therefore the manufacturers control the vote.

AHPC set out and marketed their boats well, they had top class sailors win events, they discounted and made sure their boats were seen at events. They gave good backup and had a good design, albeit probably 20 kgs over weight. They had good manufacturing processes in a cheap labour environment, they took the marketing of there boats seriously and because of that they are now the dominating manufacturer.

I say well done, you deserve to be top dog and now you can dictate to what should be a long running class. Every other manufacturer out there dithered about or didn't have the budget to really push their products and thus lost the marketing campaign.

Remember history is littered with great design being over whelmed by inferior design simply by marketing nous and expertise, the best doesn't always succeed.

If the class was to vote I would actually vote to increase the weight further to about 130kgs, its at this point the F16's suddenly start to become competitive in SCHRS and Texel handicap systems. At this weight the performance is not lost on handicap and it gives good margins on build durability.

The ironic thing is that if the weight is increased to 125kgs, it will have the opposite effect to what the manufacturers hope, that of sealing off the market to just 1 or 2 suppliers. At 125 kgs the likes of Hobie and others will all have boats on the water within 12 months, afterall all they have to build is hulls and use components from within their own range for ancillaries such as boards and masts. Cheap cheap development and a no brainer to at least be part of a probably the biggest growing market in small cat sailing.

awesome. I hope more people move this direction... at least up here

I think raising the minimum weight will end up in breaking up the F16 class, especially if Nacra will be able to provide enough of their Olympic 17s
Almost same price and not too much difference in weight then...
I chose the F16 besides I wanted to enter a challenging class that, although I´m a light Helm (68kg), I ´m able to right my F16 solo, so even whem my Helm doesn´t got time, I don´t have to stay on shore. IMHO I wouldn´t be able to right a 125kg boat without aids.

Righting is not an issue whether its 107 or 120kgs, its the mast weight and sail weight that does most of the damage.

will a 120-130kg F16 still have a carbon-mast? I dont think so an alloy mast is cheaper - especially if a manufacturer uses a shortend F18 mast...

Raising weight? There goes all the uni wannabees. Ya know, as we age, there is a need for a good lightweight uni/sloop-spin boat. But there is already a ready-to-go heavy sloop class out there--- F18.

Have fun.
BC <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />

Sure. Why not?

Agree with Bob +1,0000

Disagree with Wayne from a previous post....about AHPC being Top Dog because they have more boats out there that are over weight and should therefore dictate rule changes.....so some of the other manufacturers built to the F16 specs and now we want to punish them with a rule change ... I don't think that's the class I want to be a part of.

I agree with Bob and Tback. I never did understand why owners did not demand the lightest boat that could be built under the rules, especially for the amount they were paying. The fact that it is close to minimum weight is the primary reason I purchased my Blade. It is a critical element in defining the F-16 class. Any discussion about the classs minimum weight this long after the class forming should be about how much and how quickly it should DECREASE! I propose the class weight decrease 1 pound a year for the next ten years as a sarting point.

I like Mike's thinking.

Mike?

Cat sailing has been a trade war since the Hobie and Prindle days, probably always will be. If this problem goes away, another will pop up.

Yup the higher weight will be a problem for the Uni sailor pushing the boat around the beach, but not on the water where it will make very little difference and in some ways helps the handicap rating. Now a nacra F17 at 140kgs was as I am lead to believe by those who have sailed them, a bit of an early generation dog that didn't do very well ( hence the myriad of sail and mast changes to try and make it work ), Hobie FX1 at 150kgs was not a good boat single handed so I guess we know the limits as to sail area/weight ratios single handed.

Those pushing the higher weight limit have no interest in single handing nor manufacturing a boat suitable as their target market is the lightweight crew of about 140kgs of which there are plenty. With the Olympic boat now being a mixed crew, starting in the F16's rather than the F18's will be a no brainer. Even the lightweight F18 crews will probably drop back to the F16 if racing fleets become big enough to interest them. Out of all this melee the F16 class will be stronger than ever and the F18 fleet smaller than before.

Don't want to say I told you so but this has been coming for some time and I would guess dropping the single handed weight and option of racing single handed can't be far off the agenda.

As I have often discussed in other threads, maybe it is time to produce a dedicated F16HP single handed boat and perhaps a dedicated class to go with it.

I agree with mike!

Sadly I did understand and have voiced this for some time. If a boat is uncompetitive under SCHRS and Texel at 107 kgs, but is competative at 130kgs without seemingly any loss of speed for carrying those extra 23kgs, then its a no brainer which boat is going to be the one I will spend my money on.

It wasn't our rules persee but the fact that other more powerful outside influences were contradictory to our rules which has caused the problem. I'm pretty sure if the Viper hadn't been as sucessful as it has been in Europe under the handicap ratings, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Seemingly very few wish to be part of the class. Prior to nationals there were only a half dozen of us who had paid their dues.

would increasing the minimum weight allow for those precious few with the skill, time and inclination to home build?

Or can you home build an F16 at current weight minimum?

First plywood boats where already pretty close to min weight back then without Carbon masts and beams.

Taipan glass boats where also very close to min weight.

There is no secret to building light but clean work and careful design under good quality control systems.

I have a hard time understanding how the general public can be quite so gullible.
1 manufacturer elects to enter the F16 market on the cheap by recycling their current F18 parts, placing them on a pair or shorter hulls, and then subbing out the build remotely to Asia and then putts a marketing spin on it, telling the world that you “have to have these things to make it cheap and strong”

I am a boat builder, so I cannot begrudge anyone for making money without having to spend a lot, but poor design work and building techniques are not a reason that I would ever consider a valid excuse for a class to change its rules.

Yes in 1 part of the world there is a handicap system that punishes the light weights. Again why would there be a discussion about changing a class just to meet a handicap system that is not universally used, or long term stable.

There are a bunch of internet and whiners complaining about inequality in the class, but I only see that as yet another excuse to not join, as we change that, then there will be something else wrong. If weight is the all important factor, some make it out to be, then shop around and you can purchase a min or very near minimum weight boat from a variety of different builders. If you chose 1 of the heavy models, then that should not be valid reason to punish other owners.

I believe the intent of the F16 was to be an owner’s class, not a manufacturer’s class. I chose to buy a lighter boat because that is what I wanted. I do not care if someone else buys another brand, but it does bother me that they then want to tell me I will have to carry weight, just because their boats builder elected not to build a true F16, but some franken 18 JR

Given your comments, I would agree that I'm not quite sure what the rationale is for a heavier boat, other than to beat a rating system.

It doesn't matter. The rank and file don't pay their dues so they aren't class members. They don't get a vote, have no standing to question a vote.

If you're really concerned about it, pay your dues.

There was no rationale regarding the handicap system, the Vipers use of F18 parts were simply an economic solution to

dipping ones toes in the water

of F16 sales. By almost an accident it produced a boat that fitted into an antiquated handicap system.

With all the factors of good marketing, a reasonable design, good race results and fitting into a handicap system, the Viper has suceeded where others have failed.

One can think of the VHS and Betamax as a typical example of consumer nievity in not picking the best product.

I won't be re-uping next year. I paid my dues immediately after buying my boat in January and have received absolutely nothing for it. Not even a

thank you.

I take that back somewhat... After several months of complaining, I was eventually allowed to read the private forums...

There was a National Championship regatta.

Ask not what the class can do for you. What can you do for the class is the question.. <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

I think this thread have taken a different, positive, direction now. What is expected of the class and what is expected from the members.

OMG! You're really gonna get it now. I was trying to avoid telling people that if they don't like the way something is being done, perhaps they should get off their butts and do it themselves; or at least pitch in and help. But I decided not to 'cause that's much to inflammatory.

I have the (sometimes) advantage of not having english as my native language. I must have pressed one of those buttons which are unknown to those not natively speaking english or living in an english speaking culture.. Becouse I dont see how what I wrote would be inflammatory. There were no accusations in my statement, unless some decides to interpret&compile what I wrote as accusatory. If anybody feels accused of not contributing that was certainly not the intention of my post.

Some sailors expressed that they are not seeing much benefit in being class members. I think being a class member means that you will get some benefits of being a member, and also that this puts an obligation on the individual class members. My question was really as simple as that. If it is unclear what is expected in this mutual relationship, no wonder that there is frustration or perhaps even worse, indifference.

I think I will take this to a different thread..

I made a new

class neutral

thread for discussing expectations and deliverables regarding classes and class memberships in the open forum..

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=254712

Please, lets take the discussion there.

It was a joke, sarcasm! Few people are will to do the work necessary for a viable class association, yet almost all are willing to complain if the class doesn't operate as they feel it should.

Sarcasm? On the internet??!! You got to be kidding.