Increased weight

yeah, what he said

Then you better check and be sure you've paid your dues. What happens is, the people who want to change the rules, wait until activism within the class has quieted, then they can make whatever changes they want without opposition. All organizations are like that.

This is a key comment and actually happening. I did not get the enough time and support from the secretary to work together with him on further structure work for the class ( he was basicly working on changes for the class ) . There is a basic plan made from the time working with John but needs to be fine tuned and approved.

Hans

This is probably the single best reason for paying dues. It shows you're awake and have a vested interest in what happens.

I guess I don't understand this logic. Class rules state a minimum weight of 107kg; therefore boat manufacturers are okay to build any product they beleive is sellable and marketable regardless of weight (albeit it must be > 107kg).

Using your logic if all boat manufacturers built boats at 107kg then only 107kg boats would be sold ... but that's not consistent with Class Rules. I believe, all manufacturers of F16's today are in compliant with Class Rules

I'll give AHPC (and their distributors) all the praises for executing on a sound business plan. They're building and marketing a boat that fits the F16 Class Rules.

However, I don't think it reasonable that we make a major modification of Class Rules because a Manufacturer should be able to

dictate to what should be a long running class

.

I think most of us had parents that encouraged us to participate in sports, theater, music, academics and to try as hard as we can to be the best that we can WITHIN THE RULES--NOT CHANGE THEM to fit our strengths.

Is there a valid reason to change our rules other than

top dog and now you can dictate to what should be a long running class

?

Maybe every years winner of the F16 Worlds should be able to make rule changes ... clearly they are the Top Dog.

From the Formula 16 HomePage:
The F16 is designed to sail equally well 1-up and 2-up, and what's more both configurations race each other on elapsed time.

....race each other on elapsed time.

When did we care about SCHRS and Texel ratings?

Shouldn't we be building this Class for the benefit of the F16 sailors to race against each other.

Are there really regattas that a fleet of F16 show up and they don't race 1st across wins?

I say again, if we're part of

the biggest growing market in small cat sailing

, what benefit does the weight addition really provide for us ... the sailors or the Class?

At least someone finally said it! Building a boat to a handicap rule is the quickest path to the dead boat society. I gotta get out of here before my head explodes.

That's one off the arguments i tried to tell the people who wanted to change the rules to meet rating systems. It has been a fight for the last 2 years.

To be honest if you are prepared to bury your head in the sand then by all means then we probably won't miss you.

If you think that any class can survive outside of the Texel and SCHRS then you are living on past times. The 1 boat that has done well in F16 guise, the Viper is over weight by some margins and knowingly then uses its 104 guise in most handicap races. In those races which usually have far more publicity than any of our own F16 races, it can do well under the more forgiving handicap than if it used the F16 rating. Winning events means sales, consumers are yes gullible enough to not see through the short term and plan for the long term. just look how many people have bought the Iphone 5 when it wasn't really much of an upgrade on the 4S

Now wake up everybody, winning races outside of purely F16 races is probably more important to the class than winning a purely F16 race at this time. We simply do not yet have enough boats on the water to not race in handicap events, but that will happen.

How about we then plan for the long term, swallow a bit of pride ( and yes I am an advocat and have fought hard to keep the lower weight over the years )and say yes bring the weight up to 120kgs and really really get the class established. In truth it probably only effects few manufacturers and they probably with everything onboard are around the 110 - 115kgs anyway. 5kgs of ballast is neither here nor there.

Once the class is established in numbers then perhaps the members ( who are the voters, not the manufacturers )could perhaps do what is happening now and lower the weight, a few more enlightened people may well open there minds perhaps and see that the original weight may have been a good thing.

We still have a problem though with AHPC and the Viper, if they don't get their way and raise the weight to more match their boats ( the majority of potential voters afterall ) they will begin to set up OD races excluding all other F16 boats. It will probably mean that Hobie and others will not enter the fray, meaning higher prices and less choice. We either bite the bullit now and raise the weight to compromise or we simply accept that Viper and Nacra will be the only players in town.

For those not aware WHY you should vote YES for an increase in the min weight!

Ya need to send a lot of money for a all carbon 107k boat. The mfg's making production fiberglass / epoxy / Alum spars are much heavier 125kg/275lbs.

So if you want to be competitive for all the average joe to go sailing ya need to increase the weight.

Go ask Matt @ falcon what a min carbon F16 costs.

So....
107kg a boat weighs 235lbs
129lg a boat weighs 284lbs ( advertised weights ) I asked Robbie Daniel and the last time they weight a V16 they averaged 275lbs

If you don't think the 50lbs is critical on this boat your only kidding yourself.

Yes this is a development class but AT WHAT COST!

Totally agree that an all carbon boat would be ideal and no a F16 at 107 kgs is not all carbon, just look at the Vision, almost all glass hulls and just carbon mast.

We have hacked the weight cost / issue to death over the years, but little did we appreciate that 50lbs makes very little differnce in speed and yet softens the harshness of low weight in handicap ratings.

This is something that has escaped most of us used to more V shaped hulls of past generations of boats and something that the controling authorties such as ISAf have yet to catch up on ( although they are aware that boats are no longer fitting into existing computer models and adjusting them slowly ).

It is also something that most internet sailors just cannot comprehend and it would seem that the few who are actually sailing these boats are now beginning to understand.

Wayne handicap numbers are NOT engraved in stone. By your own statements you believe the heavy F16 has a very favorable rating. You have to know that situation won't last.

The idea of increasing the weight only to lower it later doesn't make any sense at all. If you think AHPC will have a successful OD fleet you're wrong. There is only one successfull multihull fleet and that's the Hobie 16, all the others are dead or dieing. To go down the OD path now is fleet suicide.

If the fleet does vote to go heavy what is to prevent the light F16 owners from creating an F16HT class? If I had light weight F16 there is no way you could convince me that strapping lead to my boat is good for the class because some the owners want to dominate handicap races (due to a soft number).

Hobie will NEVER build a F16 light or heavy. Hobie is a kayak company and building beach cats just doesn't make the same $$. I'd also predict that the Wildcat will never be replaced and when sales don't justify the production cost they will get out of the F18 game.

I know I'm not going to change your mind and I have no cat in this fight but some of the things you say just have to be challenged.

One thing for certain is, I'm not saying the Viper has a favorible handicap at all, what I am saying is that at 1.018 it is competitive with other modern boats such as the F18's and Hurricanes ie with the right skipper and wind ranges it sometimes comes out on top. At 0.989 ( F16 ) it is a real task to get in the points such is the competition at the top level. My guess is that the Viper is about right.

For a long time I have voiced that the ratings are still too biased over weight and are behind the game / missed that the rigs are now having more of an impact than what we think. There are a number of classes that have recently updated the rigs with great success and rejuvinated old boats and then wonder why they are doing very very well in handicap racing. I would guess ratings such as SCHRS will eventually catch up, but it does great damage along the way, designers can now design and introduce boats faster than the ratings are willingly changed.

Do agree on the Hobie issue. But there are others out there who will probably step in.

Wayne,

I've witnessed here in the US, that with the

right skipper

, the F16 can compete with the F18's and N20's on straight elapsed time.

Yup, we have N20's and F18's at my club and even I can whoop their ar*** at times. But and the big but, they whoop my ar** more times than I kick theirs. Over a summer series such we recently have had, you would have to expect that that would be the case.

Anyway water line length will always have a major impact on this sort of thing.

Wayne you are way to preoccupied with sailing handicap.

Sailors that choose their weapon based on how it works in the numbers are horribly fickle and always think the grass is greener. You guys are finally starting to build some great momentum please don't undo it by trying to promote the class through handicap racing.

Changing class rules to accomodate handicap racing just makes me feel unclean.

I heart Ding. Preach it brother!

This is a completely asinine discussion. again.....

Ding, What the hell are you doing over here? Have you been in the koolaid again?

<img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />

Yes 50 or more pounds matter and because of that would I want no part in a class if it is going to requiring that kind of a weight. To me that kills one of the biggest attractions to the F16 class.

I bought a glass boat with a carbon stick that I weighed at 110 kg. (The mast by the way is 1kg over so I could be even less I guess) If I had wanted a heavier boat I could have gotten one. I do not begrudge those that buy other heavier boats. If the weight issue was all that important to them, then they could have easily shopped around and purchased a light weight boat.

Lazy building practices and selling things not designed for their intended purposes do make it better or right. Look at the Telefonica project. 2 Volvo 70s build by 2 yards with the same spec. 1 is heavy and breaks multiple times during its life. The other is light and sails around the world with no issues multiple times. Which 1 is better?

If you want to buy heavy, go ahead, but do not tell the rest of us we can’t. Using marketing hype as a justification is a bit misguided to say the least.

Mini sounds borderline hostile towards the heavier boats. lol

I wouldn't call the Viper lazily built. Its stout.

Guys do not get me wrong in advocating weight for weight sake, I am a real light weight advocate ( my own home built

almost

F16 compatible boat is around the 100 kilos and I could have made it lighter if I felt the need ( 5 kgs max of ballast ) ) and do consider the likes of the Viper just an economic but lazy way to build boats. I'm sure if the Viper used properly designed ancillary components then it would be pretty close to the class weight, after all I am led to believe the hulls are around the 26 kilos, which is pretty par to most other manufacturers hulls.

But I am a realist who understands that to move foward you sometimes have to bow to greater influences. At this time the rating systems and market forces are out of kilter with our class weights, to change that will take years and years to both alter the perception of the buying public and even longer to sway the likes of the SCHRS who by very nature of its business will be cautious and will generally lag current boat design, after all its not until there is a problem, can it react.

So on one hand I would say why bother at this stage to alter what is a pretty achievible weight and on the other I'm saying for the benefit of the class it is probably a need to accept that we may need for the moment to increase it.

Wayne,

I dont see any significant reason to increase min weight and I dont see a need.
Raising min weight would be a very radical move back into the past.

You have presented some valid arguments for taking action and I think this have been an interesting discussion. But it is very clear, to me at least, that nothing needs to be done <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

If there is an agenda in the background to raise min weight we will know when the ballot is presented. It looks like I will have a boat next summer so I will be a class member again. I have not weighted my homebuild yet but whatever the finished weight will be I will not argue to have the class rules changed to optimize my boat <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />

Could we instead talk about CNC and stepper motors not moving as I want them to?

Guys I might have to eat my words a bit, as part of Bitsa's

upgrade

I have it back at home and felt with all the weight issues being bandied about again, I would take the time to weigh it accurately ( I had only ever weighed it with rig and everything up fresh out of the workshop and its not the easiest at that stage ). Recently I have altered the original spinny concept and had a few ding repairs over the last season + had a water leak etc, probably a more representative time to do the weighing.

A porky 107 kgs or there abouts. I'm pretty sure I could have built it down to around the 104 pretty easily but always knew that weight was not an issue due to the majority of handicap racing that I do ( which I suspect most clubmen do ) and taken some liberties in beefing up the bottom of the hulls with extra layers of glass etc.

Sorry, no hostility intended against the heavier boats. They elected to do things a certain way and that is fine with me. The people who purchased their boats did so knowing they were heavy. It is called freedom and I am all over it.

Now there is a movement in place to force heavy on everyone and this does make me hostile. There are affordable choices of lighter boats, so to say it cannot be done is BS. If no one buys the heavy models you better beleive a new light version will soon appear. (From the builders standpoint, why go the effort to do it if the public buys the one you already have). At the end of the day , who cares if Nacra or ahpc or any other builder makes an F16. As long as there are boats being bought, somebody will build them. If the class continues its growth, they already have an investment and they will figure it out - it is not that difficult.

This carbon cost thing is nothing more than scare tactics. I can go out and purchase a new full carbon 75kg state of the art A class cat for the same or less than a Fiberglass and aluminum heavy butt F18. If you ask me, (and I'm getting old, so its more important) the A class option is a much better value for what I am purchasing.

I felt disturbance in the force and I kept getting drawn here and then there it was screaming at me, I couldn't stop myself.

Uh oh, sweetness just caught looking at the F16 forum gotta go.

Isn't she on an H-16 now?

Nope. She is sailing with me this weekend at DIYC and she's doing Hirams. She doesn't mind the H16 but I have ruined her for everyone else. What can I say, I'm special.

Like

Short Bus riding

special?

The two food supplements I've been using since high school, to both gain weight and increase cerebral capacity are; Pizza and Beer.

The Pizza will put weight on you quickly. If on Friday night you find out it's going to be blowing on Saturday, Eat UP! You'll be 10lbs. heavier by morning!

And the beer will make you super intelligent, even quicker!

Just ask anyone, after their 5th beer...

But be careful, too much beer and you'll lose your Pizza weight!

I'm so glad you're a pilot....