SL 16 might expand the Formula 16 Class?

I think Mary and I discussed this about 2 years ago and then I said that the SL16 CAN be made part of the F16 class. I don't think I used the word

will

.

And I couldn't (shouldn't ?) have used

will

as that was not within my capacity as the F16 class chairman to garantee anything of this sort at the time. Also it is well outside of my position today to say such a thing now. I'm no longer a F16 class official.

But I do think Mary has a point. I think w must seriously consider welcoming the SL16's from the specs it looks like they are full compliant F16's

Wouter

Sorry, Wouter. I should not have said

will.

I asked you if the SL 16 would fit within the Formula 16 class, and you said,

I would say that it does.

There was just a very minor discrepancy in the size of the jib on the SL 16.

Anyway, I think we agree that it would be a great addition to the Formula 16 class.

On the other hand, maybe the SL 16 class does not even want to be part of the F16 class. You can lead a boat to formula, but you can't make it join.

If it fits under our box rules, I dont see why not. Can anyone post a link to the SL16 sizes and specs.

This is very cool.

Ok here is what I found:
Length: 4.80 m Beam: 2.32 m
Weight: 152.0 kg Crew: 3 <-hope this is a typo
Main sail area: 13.75 m² Jib area: 3.75 m²
Spi area: 17.00 m² Mast lenght: 8.0 m
SOURCE

Maybe a little heavy,..is there a maximum weight on the platform? <img src=

alt=

/>

No max weight for the F16 class.

Hi

Saw one sailing a couple of times last year.

There nearer to a hobie 16 with kite performance then a f16.

I guess they will not want to race as f16.

Bye

I agree, they are smaller rigs, less sail area and weigh 45Kg more.

Bur kids are FAST. As Pete would ask,

You're not askeert of 'em, are you?

<img src=

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It would just provide some additional venues in which they would get some practice without having to race on Portsmouth. And also maybe fill out the F16 fleet so you can have enough boats to be scored as a class and get trophies.

If it turns out that the SL16 is definitely slower, you could have one extra trophy to give to the first

youth boat

(meaning youth boat sailed by youths) in the final finish positions of the F16 class.

I forget now whether the F16 class also allows Hobie 16's with spinnaker, but that would be nice, too, since that is the other official youth boat.

Whether those boats fit exactly into the F16 formula or not, the United States F16 Class Association can certainly agree to allow the youth boats to race with them in most events.

Yes definatley. They fit under our box rule. I guess it would be up to the SL16 sailor if they want to race with us, first in wins. I dont think the USF16 class will have a problem. Now it is a matter of just finding anyone with a SL16 that will race with F16s. <img src=

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I don't know if anybody even has an SL 16 YET. But I thought it would be nice if the F16 class would publicly extend a welcome to the SL16's, and also to the Hobie 16 with spinnaker.

The kids need to be able to practice tactics in a one-design or formula situation. And racing against the faster boats will just help to make them better and faster. (You usually get faster chasing a rabbit than BEING a rabbit.)

The youth sailors in Europe have had lots of experience on spinnaker boats, and our kids don't -- so they get trounced when they go to ISAF Youth Worlds.

It would be a really good gesture on the part of the F16 Class to welcome the two youth boats. It would be a good class to help them with their training. And it's not like there are a lot of them. You might be lucky to get one or two, now and then. But at least it would be a start. And if they know there is a class they can race in, the youth sailing might start to grow.

It will be a long time (if ever) before there are racing classes of youth catamarans around the United States. So the Formula 16 Class is a logical place for them to be able to race against somewhat similar boats.

We would welcome any SL 16 boats to join in at the California F16 event in June. Same goes for Hobie 16 w/spin, Prindle 16 w/spin or Nacra 5.0 w/spin--all are welcome to start and race boat for boat as

F16s

in that event. I do not know of any Inter/Nacra 17s in the region, but we would also strongly consider letting them and the Fx-1 join in.

Mary I think the best option is for the SL16 class/owners approach us same goes for the Hobie 16s.

Last time we invited folks to sail with us straight up, it was a big can of worms.

I do not have a problem welcoming the SL16s and or H16 with spinakers to sail against me straight up.

Robi,
As I said, there are no SL 16 owners yet. The idea is to make it more attractive to people to want to buy them after the U.S. Youth Nationals by letting them know in advance that there are going to be groups they can sail with.

The F16 class should make some sort of flyer that can be handed out at the Youth Nationals, inviting SL16's to participate in all the F16 events, and especially in that big California event you have all been talking about.

Why should the F16 class go through all the leg work? WHy not the future SL16 class/owners make the effort and put in a request to be grandfathered into our class? Seems like we the F16 class must always go out of our way to let other into our class. Why cant it be the other way around. TO be honest, I am quite happy with the class currently, yes it would be better to have more boats. But why should I go out of MY way to invite them? Let them be invited and let them ask for the invitation.

I think Eric already stated that the SL16s will be welcomed. The youth multihull championships is on the west coast. So I would assume that is where it will all start. I think this is a matter of the SL 16 class and NOT of the F16s

I don't know how to explain it any better. <img src=

alt=

/> But let me try.....

Even if you don't care about the youth sailing, helping out youth sailors on Hobie 16's and SL 16's is good, from a selfish perspective, in the long run, for the future of the F16 class.

It is up to you guys, as adults, to implement this invitation, not up to the kids to ask if they can participate in your races. It is not something that would even occur to them. They don't even know there is such a thing as a Formula 16 class.

Thanks for the suggestions, Mary. In that spirit, let me invite anyone who knows any SL16 buyers or anyone involved in the youth nations on the SL16 to please forward the attached flyer to them and let them know the SL16 can sail in the event as part of the F16 class.

Thanks

Mary, where did I say I did not care about the YOUTH program. Where does the youth program get involved? Why even mention the youth program. This is about the SL16 class/boat. Just because it was selected as a youth program does not make the boat only sailable by youths at any regatta. Look at the H16, how many adults sail that type of boat at any given regatta? So where did I say anything about the YOUTH program or even saying that I do not care about such program?

I dont get why must the F16 class do such a thing? The boat fits under our rules, but it is NOT an F16. Just like the F16 fits under alot of other class rules but we are not such boats. Just like the wave fits under the F16 class, but that does not make it a F16. Why should the F16 class invite a NON F16 boat to race straight up with us? Even if it is slower or faster. Heavier or lighter.

NOW

On the other hand, if any of those boats that fit under our rule want to play with us, by all means welcomed. The more the merrier. But seems like you are saying WE the F16 should do this or do that. I dont see why WE should. The SL 16 is not a F16.

Just a question - does the SL16 measure as a F16?? (A simple yes or no would be appreciated)

Cheers,
Tiger Mike

Wouter? Haven't you said that it measures in, in every way except for a very minor discrepancy in the jib size, like a couple of inches (or was it centimeters) too big?

Okay, here is a portion of a long conversation with Wouter a year ago:

Regarding the SL 16, I asked,

But does it fit within the F16 class, and would it conceivably be competitive within that class?

Wouter said:

I would say that it does. We had to make a gamble a year ago when the F16 class adjusted her class rules in the way of sail area. We decide upon 3.7 sq.mtr. jibs Hoping that this would allow the SL16 as well, the SL 16 specs were tentative then. Turns out that the SL16 now has a jib size of 3.75 sq. mtr. 5/100 of a sq. mtr. to much according to F16 class rules. However, my experience is that sailmakers typcially undercut their sails by 0.05-0.10 sq. mtr. just to have them measure in for certain and to maintain complient after years of use. So I really don't expect any new SL16 jibs to be non-F16 complient. Maybe after a year of hard sailing the sails will stretch a little but they will be blown out as well. Nobody will protest them or demand a remeasuring, after they were measured to be compliant when they were new. I don't see the point in doing so either. It is a pretty small non-complience. Apart from that it is full complient in every respect.

Wouter continued:

Will it be competitive in the F16 class? They'll be at a noticeably disadvantage BUT I expect a good youth SL16 team to be in the upper 25 % portion of the fleet just the same. We are talking about 8 point speed difference under texel here, That is is less then 5 min per our racing. In my experience the top 3 to top 5 of any race with a sizeable fleet (15 to 50 boats) covers about 3 to 5 min from the winning time.

Of course best is that the youths are racing other SL16's and other youths but this is not likely to happen in a meaningful size racing fleet. I think that having these teens in the F16 class will push them a lot harder and make them learn vital tactics and sailing skill much better then when match racing the other national team. Lets face it, these kids need to learn how to start in a fleet, how to round crowded bouys and how to cover a fleet (and not just 1 other boat) . And the expected performance of the Sl16 is such that they will do well in a F16 scoring if they do well sailing the SL16. They gap is not so large that they can't do well in the scoring.

End of Wouter quote.

And I think that is what I have been trying to say as far as including the youth boats in the F16 racing fleets. I concur completely with Wouter on this.

Mike: According to the F16 rules and the specs I have read online about the SL16, NO the SL16 does not fit under the F16 rules due to the SL16's jib is bigger by .05m^2

Here is a view of what I have. You can see at a glance that boat for boat, the SL 16 is disadvantaged against a F16. This is why I dont think it is a good idea for the F16 class to openly invite them into the F16 group. To me it would seem like we would be inviting an under powered boat to compete vs us, and guarantee the F16 victory over the SLs. I would invite a faster boat, not a slower boat. (This is speaking BOAT FOR BOAT. Without taking into account sailors or loose nuts on the tillers)

Lengths are measured in meters, weight in Kg and sail areas in squared meters. The blacked off areas are areas I am still working with the excell spreadsheet and are totally irrelevant to this discussion.

As you can see they are shorter, narrower and the mast is shorter as well. Their mainsail is smaller so is there spinnaker. There jib on the other hand is bigger but only by .05m^2. Also notice they are 45Kg heavier as well.

IMO boat for boat, not a very good match, I will be interested to see the DPN on this boat.

Robi, good points; nonetheless I would have no objection to the SL 16 joining in at the California event. I would imagine the racing could still be quite competitive. I'm sure the Blades won't mind racing me, even though my boat is under maximum width. No where in our formula rules is there any objection to sub-optimized boats. Gary on Altered sails a narrower beam boat too, I believe. And how about the Mozzies in South Africa and Australia--they're narrower and have shorter masts than allowed with the F16 formula, but obviously they're very fast and compete well against the Taipan F16s in Oz.

Thanks for that. I'm not a F16 sailor and have no vested interest either way. That said, I don't see how you could possibly accept the Sl16 into the F16 class.

AFAIK there are a couple of manufacturers that are supporting the class and have designed boats that do comply with the rules in every way. IMHO these manufacturers need to be nurtured for the class to grow and be respected. How can any of these builders have any confidence in the class when it chooses to welcome boats that

near enough

to the rules

Try rocking up to a F18 regatta with a jib that is

only a bit bigger

, a Fireball or just about any other class for that matter and see how far it gets you <img src=

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Just my $0.02 worth.... I'll go back to my regular lurking now.

Tiger Mike

I am getting very confused.

A Formula class consists of a bunch of different one-design boats that fit within that formula class.

For instance, a Formula 16 is not a class of boat, per se -- it is a racing class category that is open to any boat that measures in. Right?

Some boats are actually built to be optimized for the Formula 16 measurements. Lots of others are NOT, but can still race in the formula class if they want to and if they measure in. Doesn't matter whether they have smaller sails, are fatter, heavier, slower, whatever. If somebody wants to race in your class, and their boat measures in, you can't turn them away just because you think they won't be

competitive.

That is their decision to make. And it is based upon the measurements that your class approved.

In the case of the F16 class, the class organizers decided to grandfather certain classes into the F16 class even though they were nonconforming. But that grandfathering was done based upon the stock specifications for those boats. Aside from those grandfathered, nonconforming classes, no other boat needs any official designation by the F16 Class in order to be able to race in the Formula 16 Class at a regatta. Just needs to measure in.

To give a radical example, the Hobie Wave is obviously an A-Class, and I don't see how it could be turned away from racing at an A-Class event even at the highest levels.

In summary, as I see it: A formula is not a specific boat -- it is a category of boats. And for some reason most formula classes do not seem to specify minimum length, or maximum weight.

As far as the SL 16, if the F16 Class officers are concerned about that .05 difference in jib size, just suggest that the manufacturer have their sailmaker shave off a sliver somewhere.

That is such a miniscule difference it is laughable. You should see the differences in sail area for

stock sails

on some production SMOD boats over the years. <img src=

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Have you all had your jibs measured properly measured by an official measurer? Are you just ASSUMING that your jib measures in? <img src=

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While the SL16 technically doesn't fit within the F16 class rules, it is so deficient in all areas of physical measure save for the jib size, where it is BARELY in excess, that not allowing it to race as an

accepted

F16 boat is too literal an interpretation of the class rules (IMO).

That said, the discussion does raise the issue of how much variation from the rules should be allowed for boats that were not designed with the F16 class in mind, but are close enough to be considered members?

I think Mary is absolutely spot on here.

In all the sail measurements I've seen over the years it is not uncommon at all to see the sails cut 0.05 sq. mtr to small by sailmakers. They often do this to not have their sails made uncompliant by a measuring official who pulls harder on a measuring tapes then his collegues. And to allow for some stretching of the sail over time.

Most sailmakers try to end up at 0.03 sq. mtr. smaller the absolute limit. I think many may find that the SL 16 jib will actually measure in under F16 rules if the sail is measured when absolutely new.

I have seen alot of jibs that were between 0.05 and 0.15 sq. mtr. smaller then the absolute limit. There were even a few that were no less then 0.30 sq.mtr. smaller (some sailmakers can't read measuring tapes properly themselfs.)

So indeed while technically some are correct that 3.75 sq. mtr. jib is not a 3.70 sq. mtr. jib I think we may find that 3/4 of the SL16's measure in as F16's just the same.

Wouter

I don't understand the use of the words

deficient

, and

accepted,

and

members,

in terms of a formula class. <img src=

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