I doubt if anyone would have the neck or nerve to take out a measuring tape, if a SL16 turned up at a F16 event <img src=
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deficient
, and
accepted,
and
members,
in terms of a formula class. <img src=
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Deficient, as in most measurements are well BELOW the class maximum allowances (while the one aspect which exceeds the class rules is so minutely in excess); Accepted, as in a boat not designed specifically to be in that class being allowed to race as if they were; and Members, as in grandfathering of non-class intended boats into the class based on closeness of proximity to complying with the overall rules. Wasn't the Spitfire grandfathered in along this line of thinking?
All boats that are
deficient,
meaning less than optimal, have to be
accepted
for racing purposes whenever they show up for a regatta, because they fit within the class specs. You don't have to be a
member
of anything.
If I show up for a regatta with a Hobie 14 with spinnaker, I can sign up to sail in the F16 class if I want to, as a singlehander, as long as my sail area does not exceed the formula class limits; right?
It's not a matter of needing approval from the Formula class people. The approval is implicit in the formula itself.
Ah, thanks for the clarification.
Well, please don't take what I said as
clarification.
I am just saying what I assume to be the case. I am waiting to be shot down. <img src=
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deficient,
meaning less than optimal, have to be
accepted
for racing purposes whenever they show up for a regatta, because they fit within the class specs. You don't have to be a
member
of anything.
If I show up for a regatta with a Hobie 14 with spinnaker, I can sign up to sail in the F16 class if I want to, as a singlehander, as long as my sail area does not exceed the formula class limits; right?
It's not a matter of needing approval from the Formula class people. The approval is implicit in the formula itself.
Mary on the same token, if I show up to a F18 race and tell the RC I am racing as an F18 with a F16 honestly what do you think will happen? What will the members say about me occupying the starting line? What do you honestly think will happen if you show up at an A class event with a wave and inform them you are racing straight up? Seriously, what do you think will happen?
Like I have said numerous times. I am sure NO F16er will turn away a SL16 to race straight up. BUT, in my opinion the F16 as a class should not invite the SL16 to be part of the F16s.
Being narrower is not an issue. Look at the Taipans, they are just as fast as an optimized F16. But when you have a shorter mast, shorter hulls, smaller mainsail and spinnaker and you are 45Kg heavier. That is NOT even close to being an F16.
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As there is no max. weight or min. sailarea or other min. constants, why not let a sub-optima boat race? I would gladly let the SL16 race, but would it be fun for the SL16 crew? Perhaps if they are lightweight?
The F-16 is too light to measure in as an F-18. Pour 80kgs (?) of epoxy into the hulls, and I think you will measure in. <img src=
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I think it would be a lot more fun than not racing at all. And that is pretty much the only other option except Portsmouth.
As Wouter said, these kids need practice for starting, mark roundings, and tactics. They won't get it in Portsmouth racing. And, of course, they can't race in Hobie regattas. The only class they really can fit into at all is the F16.
It is not a matter of whether they can win; it is a matter of PRACTICE for them.
Geesh! What is the problem?
Personally I would welcome any SL16 that shows up and if they beat me then I'll buy all their drinks for the next evening.
If I'm singlehanding and a Sl16 crew wants to see what it is all about then they can crew for me anytime. If they are skilled then can be my skipper as well and I'll do the hard work up front.
I say, lets do it !
Wouter
This seems like a lot of discusion for something that is pretty straight forward.
If the boat is measured and does not violate any formula limits then it is a fully compliant F16. Theoretical performance has nothing to do with it.
For non-national/World level racing, where full complaiance should be mandatory, bring on anyone who wants to race. A well sailed SL16 will end up beating a poorly sailed F16, and with the exception of a hand full of people in the world this will be the case on any boat.
I prefer to race everyone together to get the most out of the experience in everthing but the highest level events. There will be combinations of sailors and boats that are very evenly matched no matter what is sailed. For the higher level events where compliance is being observed if it does not measure then it is out. A F16 may be competitve with the F18s in theory but it is way under weight and will never be
in complaiance
to compete in a high level race. If a crew on a SL16 wants to sail at Zandvort and their equipment measures in then they are welcome. There is no
invite
. For local stuff if you are getting wrapped up in who you sail with and what boat you sail, please leave or go get on a mono-hull.
Mary maybe you were not clear on what you wanted or suggested. Let me ask you this so we do not waste any more valuable resources or effort.
No one will not permit a SL16 to race against a F16 straight up. We all know it measures under the F16 rules. But do you want the SL16 to be acepted as a F16? or do you want the F16 class just let them race with us straight up?
Like I have said in various posts. No F16er will prohibit any SL16er sail against them. But I do not think the SL16 should be considered or added to the F16 lineup.
In other words Me, personally do not think the SL16 should be considered a F16 when it is not. Now race straight up with the F16 I do not see a problem there.
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Doesn't the class have an official measurement cert for each boat??? If not, how do you know if *any* boat complies with the rules?
Tiger Mike
I think Mary is absolutely spot on here.
In all the sail measurements I've seen over the years it is not uncommon at all to see the sails cut 0.05 sq. mtr to small by sailmakers. They often do this to not have their sails made uncompliant by a measuring official who pulls harder on a measuring tapes then his collegues. And to allow for some stretching of the sail over time.
Most sailmakers try to end up at 0.03 sq. mtr. smaller the absolute limit. I think many may find that the SL 16 jib will actually measure in under F16 rules if the sail is measured when absolutely new.
I have seen alot of jibs that were between 0.05 and 0.15 sq. mtr. smaller then the absolute limit. There were even a few that were no less then 0.30 sq.mtr. smaller (some sailmakers can't read measuring tapes properly themselfs.)
So indeed while technically some are correct that 3.75 sq. mtr. jib is not a 3.70 sq. mtr. jib I think we may find that 3/4 of the SL16's measure in as F16's just the same.
Wouter
I'm guessing that the rules are written that sails shall have a maximum area and stipulate as to how they are measured???
From there surely the sailmaker would be expected to use that number as a maximum figure and build any tolerance to be in the smaller direction when they are assembling their sails??? If the class deems that a larger jib to be acceptable then change the rule so that all sailors can take advantage of it.
The simple answer would be for any SL16 owner wanting to sail as F16 to measure their jib and modify it if it is oversize (shaving a few mm off the foot should be enough).
In most classes it's the skippers responsibility to ensure that their boat complies with the class rules at all times and this is one rule that should also apply to F16.
Cheers,
Tiger Mike
If the boat is measured and does not violate any formula limits then it is a fully compliant F16. Theoretical performance has nothing to do with it.
For non-national/World level racing, where full complaiance should be mandatory, bring on anyone who wants to race. A well sailed SL16 will end up beating a poorly sailed F16, and with the exception of a hand full of people in the world this will be the case on any boat.
Exactly!
Tiger Mike
Hi
ive sailed an SL at the europeans at Brightlingsea, good fun,tended to nosedive when it got windy, more fun!
I'd say they are a great choice as a youth boat or indeed for anyone light who doesnt want the extra power of something like a Spitfire.
It felt like a smaller heavier Spitfire with skegs.
Let them race if any turn up.
They will soon be wanting to buy one of your boats WITH BOARDS, this is the biggest difference.
I doubt if they will point anything like as high, but they should join in anyway.
Exactly.
The F16 class rules don't need to specify this or that boat is
in
the class or not. If any boat shows up and fits within the formula (okay to have a shorter mast, etc), then it can sail as an
F16.
Robi, I did not word my initial post very well. At that point I should not have used the word
accept,
because it was thought that the SL16 was totally conforming, so it did not need any
acceptance.
All I was trying to say was that an invitation should be extended to the SL16 class so they are aware there is a class they can race with until they have enough boats for their own class.
Now that it appears the SL16 is NOT totally compliant because of the jib situation, it is important that the F16 class
accept
the SL16's to race with them.
It would not be appropriate for them to be added to the existing list of non-conforming boats that were grandfathered into the class originally. So I hope that is not what you thought I was suggesting.
And I also think the Hobie 16 with spinnaker should be invited to race with the Formula 16's. Both of these youth boats will continue to be used for quite some time because either one or the other will be used for ISAF Youth World Championships, depending on which boat is most available in the host country.
Both the SL16 and the Hobie 16 with spin are misfits on their own and the F16 class is the only one I can think of that they can race in on a boat-for-boat basis.
It would be a nice contribution by the F16 class to youth sailing if these two youth boats can be invited to race in all F16 events except for Nationals or North Americans.
I hope this clarifies my thinking, fuzzy though it may be. <img src=
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