Wouter. trying to do what you want by hinging off the beam would be an engineering nightmare to get that all important tolerance free fitting, any movement at the beam will be lots of movement at the tip. By engineering a solution will mean lots of extra weight which is going to mean larger foils, more induced drag, even bigger foils to overcome the drag and weight penalties, its a vicious spiral ending in failing to acheive what you wanted in the first place.
Wouter, can you instead use your time and computer model skills to design some nice J boards, they overcome most of the problems, giving good lateral support and some lift. Getting them in and out of the boat is actually quite easy if you think things through a bit. It would mean making up a new case but then even fitting assymetric boards will mean making new cases.
Doesn't work.
We have little daggerboard in the water but this is because you don't need much. When you turn, you aren't trying to turn a 16ft hull that is in the water hence very small amount of vertical foil in the water.
But as for leeward heel being bad, the foils will lift you in the direction of the heel. So if you are heeled to leeward, then when you start foiling they lift more to leeward and on the moth no amount of hiking can counteract this as the foil forces are too high. You have to drop the mainsheet and get the boat flat and then try again being flat or slight to windward. It is a classic newbie moth mistake.
So if you are going to try a t-foil on a cat, the boat has to be sailed flat. But how to get power to foil? The Canadian c-class guys tried all this and brought in Veal but couldn't get it going faster than normal c-class.
J or S foil on each hull a better solution I think.
But as for leeward heel being bad, the foils will lift you in the direction of the heel. So if you are heeled to leeward, then when you start foiling they lift more to leeward and on the moth no amount of hiking can counteract this as the foil forces are too high.
......
From above assuming partial lift, an upside down 'Y' appears better than a 'T' ?
Then again assuming partial lift, V or U from the inside shear of each hull at the main beam?
I think the bigger question we need to address is;
1. Do we want to sail in the traditional sense, ie. no foiling, no lifing boards, etc.? (call it Old School)
2. Or do we want to go down the path of full foiling?
(the C cats and Moths have already figured it out, Dave Carlson was foiling his A cat 20 years ago)
3. Or some half-way, in-between measure, ie. C-boards, L boards, J boards... or what have you?
As a class what does the F16 want to be?
1. To even semi foil we add expense and complexity. We further separate the guys who can sail from any potential “new blood”. How many people would we attract, vs. how many would fade away if the class goes on this path? I’m too old to effectively run a spin against younger athletic teams, never mind trying to balance on foils.
2. Do we want to go completely generic and have a heavy 16 footer as being promoted by a number of builders rushing off to Asia. Hack 2 feet off the hulls and recycle all your parts and call it a new thing.
3. For me the excitement in the F16 is what was promised when the rule set first was presented. A light weight fast platform that allowed versatility for its members. Purpose designed and built F16’s can be light. It is still new and the potential for this has not been realized yet, but for a few.
The 16 class has flexibility, where it is not so likely to get caught up in the quagmire the F18 class has going for itself now. There are though, some reasonably thought out restrictions that allow for experimentation, but from a practical standpoint does not force high tech to be mandatory.
If you want foils go join the moths. Every other combination already exists as well somewhere else. You want heavy racing go F18, semi lift foils go A, Line honor racing C20-M20 etc. What is the constant fascination with people to want to f - up the rules all the time.
Just to be clear, I prefer Option 1 from my above post, and fully agree with Mini's last paragraph above.
If it is foiling, it is something else than an F16 <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
Timbo, mini, Rolf,
I thought we already went over the issue of foils in this thread?
http:/
or is there something new here?
Thanks for the reminder, that was 10 months ago.
Ahhh...the Good Old Days.
My memory is good, but it's short!
Foiling is Dangerous!
And YOU guys are Dangerous!
http:/
At work, they call me Ice Man...but sometimes it sounds a lot like butt-Man!
http:/
haven't we already answered that in our class rules ?
<img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />
personally I feel it is wise or the class to sit this one out.
let the hype and huffing and puffing settle down a bit and then decide what to do as a class.
remember the time that all proper cats just had to have outward canted boards ?
wouter
As someone who has raced cats and now sail moths, foils aren't something to rush straight into. It took the moths 5 years of development and the worlds fleet dropped from 100+ to just 30 over that period, but is now re-surging very strong and will probably have its biggest worlds this year. But the development costs were high. Companies like bladerider tried to commercialise it, but the warranty claims and the development costs sent them bankrupt. Plus the main thing is that it nearly made the class extinct. Hindsight could say the move to foils was the best thing the class did. But not a risk for a relatively new class like the F16. And the development is still going on in the moths. We reckon we have added 2 knots of speed every year from the first foilers.
That's the other problem, other than the development costs and bankrutpcy for builders, how many potential newbies are we going to scare off if we go foiling?
As Taipanfc points out, their Worlds went from 100 to 30. Wow! These boats are expensive enough already, without having to pay a Zillion dollars every time you bust a C board.
I doubt I'll stay in the class when the parts get as expensive as the Carbon 20 class (even if only at 16' rates).
Taipanfc, what's a used Moth cost these days? Maybe I'll buy one of those if I want to go foiling:
http://www.mothworlds.org/belmont/
Check out some of those videos, be sure to scroll down to the
Day 5 Highlights
, lots of wipe outs in 25knts wind.
New Mach2 moth is US$18k. I believe against F16 cats price and the performance that is good value. Comes with a 2-year warranty.
Used boats for sail found on links on the left-side here: http:/
Yes the fleet numbers dropped significantly, but 2011 worlds had 110 and Italy this year will have more.
Thanks for the link, for all you foiler wanabee's, here's some used Moths...but they make some of our cats look cheap by comparison!
http:/
New hull shape. LOL. For casual viewers only. (dangerous)
http://www.gizmag.com/air-support-h...
Who needs a motor, or sails for that matter, when you can foil all by yourself!
(you get a free Mt. Gay Rum comercial too!)
http:/
They have a moth regatta in Miami on March 16-18. So very good sailors in attendance, so worth checking out: http:/
If I can get down there I will check it out, Ben Moon is registered, should be a good show, I hope there's wind!
It's been blowing pretty hard here the past two days, I hope it's not all gone by then.