Why can't Nacra compete in F16

This is actually a brilliant example why he is so full of it.

Apparently a 20 foot with lifting foils and all carbon Nacra 20 sells like hot cakes and is alright, but an all-carbon F16 (with tighter limits to how it may be implemented) is a class killer according to him because it would be to expensive for most buyers.

Come to think of it. How would the current Nacra 20 owners regard this new all-carbon Nacra 20 ? Might they see it as a class killer ? (as in killing THEIR class)

If nacra can build and sell an A2/A3 A-cat, an All-Carbon Nacra 20 and a carbon masted F17 then they can certainly build a competitive (glass and alu) F16 if they want to. It is really not that hard when a poor conservative homebuilder like me can already get it down to 120 kg. The truth is that they just don't want to compete on a level playing field with other builders (or even amateur builders !).

In my opinion it is simply not the responsibility of a formula class to rewrite the rules to tilt the playing field more towards a particular schizophrenic boat builder. Some people apparently believe otherwise.

Now I don't piss on the boats he sails at every chance I get and I certainly hope that Macca has the same sense of well-manneredness.

Wouter

Ok.. ban Nacra, Hobie and Macca from building F16s.. should settle the issue.. <img src="<>/crazy.gif" alt="crazy" title="crazy" height="15" width="15" />

I don't think the M20 is supposed to be an F class is it?

I think it's supposed to be a one-design Texel killer..an open portsmouth rocket ship! If that is the case, it really doesn't matter. Nacra and Hobie have a HISTORY of producing class killers of their OWN classes. This is just another iteration of building another boat that's

updated

. Nacra has already given the middle finger to the 20 owners. You can't deny it's a nice boat, and it's fast, but it probably won't sell well here in the US. Not because of people being hesitant to go to a newer 20, but because of price, 30,000??? is that correct?

I know it's different in Europe, but here in the US, F16's are getting more and more questions. There hasn't been a new Nacra 20 sold in the Panhandle of Florida in a couple years, which has a BIG Nacra 20 fleet. And most of the new boats have been F16's. And, most of the Nacra 20 owners are asking about F16's.

I can see where he is coming from, and his opinion is STRONG, and he is entitled to it, just like all of us. Rather he is right or wrong is yet to be seen cause our class is relatively new. Yes, we can use some rule refinements, but that will come with age.

Just my OPINION so don't shoot me! <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Mike

mike.. water ballons at sunset!! If Im not there feel free to start without me!!! <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />

And I found it ironic that he who found it so important is sailing the second or third heaviest F18 in Racine. The boat weights are listed on the craw website.

It is what happens when you do not own the boats you sail sometimes.

You would think the factory would try to supply the best equipment - but just goes to show in the end it is the driver and for all the blustering about weight , it really means squat in the results.

Bobocat, I took a look on the CRAW website but couldn't find the weights. Any chance of a link? Just interested in seeing the spread of F18 weights.

http://crawsailing.net/uploads/F18measurements/2010_RCC_NAF18_Competitor_List.pdf

Well then piss off would be my advice..<img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

Nacra actually has a great opportunity to come in and build a min weight F16 and use their brand and marketing power. With a min weight boat they would totally trump the Viper and with their brand name should be able to overwhelm the small builders at the same time. They currently have their own issues and with having to switch to an Asian builder, there has to be some additional restrictions now to building “production quality” boats. Did you ask Macca where they build the new 20. I bet this has a bit to do with end cost too. I personally am not very excited about racing or especially owning a “performance” Daiwoo or Hyundai. I suppose though as only 1 of the Vipers sailed at the Euros was actually owned and not factory provided, if you are given a ride – you cannot complain.

Thanks Gill!

Correct There is no F class for 20 footers. Nacra calling their new 20 footer F20 is just marketing... there is no buy in from other builders to the box rule that just fits their boat. It's also not clear that at 20 feet... a box rule is even needed since physics limits what you can do. Racing the M20, and F20, boat for boat will probably depend on the crew and execution... not the design box.

The M20 was designed to replace the Tornado for Olympic competition.... the idea was that on a WL course the sail configuration put a premium on Sailor Skill and that's what the Olympic competition was about... I was supposed to be a technically challenging boat to race. Since then... the actual buyers have modified and modified the rig to make the boat a distance racing machine (since there is no buoys circuit or a racing class for the M20's or the 20 footers in general). It is not one design by any stretch.

I completely disagree with this conclusion. The nacra 20 owners screwed themselves. The notion that the nacra 20 owners could do it all ... Week long ocean distance races AND a viable buoys racing circuit proved to not be the answer to forming and growing a one design class. No visible leadership apart from the factory running a NA's for 10 plus years will do that. With just barely enough critical mass for both pursuits the top sailors slowly exited the loosely organized owners group and joined the slowly growing F18 class. Notice, you have no doubt what the F18 class priorities are ...

The factory builds boats and organizes one week long event a year. When the numbers of boat sales and racers attending the NA's falls below some threshold... The factory class is all but dead.... Nacra moves on....

Your conclusion doesn't hold up. .... Melges built and promoted the Melges 20 in the last three years... It's a sport boat that is at least 40 to 50K. They already have more boats racing on a published schedule then any 20 foot catamaran in the world. The Viper 640 retooled with a new mast and a national race circuit and it's the sport boat class to be in the USA.

Owners buy into a PROGRAM... That would be boat plus race circuit. That's the take home of looking at the F18 in the USA... The boat is not fun under 10 knots (which is the vast majority of east coast sailing) yet the race program gets racers to buy in and go racing... (who cares if everyone on the water is going slow).

I conclude that the remains of the nacra 20 class and beginnings of the F16 class are finding common ground at the level of recreational club racing. The 20 guys will down size or not when the crew issues get to the level of PIA. The challenge is to make a recreational club racing program as viable as possible... What that means is the big question for F16's (as well as the N20's).

IIMO, In the USA... the Nacra F20 sales will depend on how many owners want a boat to go distance racing and the viability of the distance races themselves. Several events have died (C100) or barely survived (Hogsbreath and it's successors)moreover, other events are looking at leadership succession in the next few years (Tybee and Steeplechase).

IMO, the N20's should see the writing on the wall and organize all of the 20's.. Tornado's, Supercats, Nacra's Marstorms and the new F20 on a distance circuit under a very loose formula rule/ measurement handicap rule. In order to keep everyone in the game for as long as possible, limit the number of new sails per year to be measured in.

IMO, The F16's should think about racing the single handers against the remains of the Nacra 17 fleet.... the competition is as much about managing the boat around the race course as strait line speed. The fantasy that the one up and two up F16's are fairly competing gets more extreme after each event. My hunch... after you look at the racing for single handers and double handers as separate issues the rules debate gets much easier.

Just my OPINION so don't shoot me! <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

HA!

You are correct that owner's do buy into a program, but(maybe it's the part of country I'm in or something) it seems that mulithull sailors in general don't want to spend as much as the other sailors. It least from what I can see!

You have a point on the singlehanded F17's and F16's, but quite honest, I believe we have tried that in the past. I'm thinking what we might want to do is some type of a race somewhere that's singlehanders only. Kind of what they do in Europe with the

One Up Cup

. That would also include A-cats also. I know, you guys probably wouldn't come, cause you guys like to play in your own sandbox sometimes, but at least we would invite you! . <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /> Notice, I'm smiling, being funny, not serious! <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

I won't shoot you! ....

<img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Mike

Whoa!!!! This thread just took a port tack. Start a new one if you must.

That's what we are good at! <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

I'm done anyway....

Ready for the Friday afternooner. <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Nacra and Hobie probably can compete in the F16 Class; however, they would disenfranchise their existing SMOD classes that are

closely

similar, FX-1 & F17. It is only recently that the F16 class has gained any real momentum and it would have been schizophrenic if they jumped in before now. Frankly, I hear very little hype about the FX-1 & F17 anymore and expect that it is an indication of some F16 surprises in the near future.

Whatever the case, it seems as though formula beachcat racing has a strong appeal for the owner and it is here to stay. Ben Franklin promoted

Join, or Die

. It may be applicable.

I like that...ole Ben Franklin....

<img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Kris

Take a look at the US scene.... the FX-1 never took off as a racing class... The Hobie 17 sailors took a look and said... no thanks.... A racing core never materialized....

The Nacra F17 basically died a year ago... They have one boat at NA's this year... just to the left of Michigan were they started! Hell... Two or three years ago... they were running a gold cup championship series with 17 racers. Bob Curry was spearheading the class.

In the USA... there are no fleets to support or kill.

The EU scene is different... The F104 class in France and it's relationship to F16's two up is one of Macca's points. ...

The one up scene looks (from here) to be mostly a local club scene. That's a good question for the EU guys... What is the level of participation for one up spin sailors in the EU. I wonder how much of a market there is for a single handed spin cat racing program.

Bobcat, it was a borrowed boat from a CRAW member. His sails and some modifications to the rigging.

For every club sailor, how many of those travel to events other than their own puddle, without a proper survey I guess I could use the F16 park at Datchet with 11 boats, only 1 has travelled to an outside event this year and i would guess that is about the norm.

In my view this is exactly where the manufacturers get it wrong, which market should they sell to, the clubman who often doesn't race or the clubman who races regulalry. At 11 : 1 it is a marketing no brainer but unless they can get the publicity from winning races then the clubman won't buy the product as they need to aspire to own the latest all singing and dancing toy.

As to EU preference to one or two crew, probably a very high number are sailed solo with an occasional crew for comps, sort of the other way around to the States.

There were lots of rumors at Racine that NACRA will be building an F16. I didn't hear it from anyone that had genuine, first hand knowledge though, so chances are its the deep fried mouse story where it always happened to somebody else.

I hope they do, another boat on the market can't hurt anything in my opinion, hopefully its an improvement over what is currently available and it keeps pushing the ball forward.

I don't know why somebody didn't ask Jack (?) from Nacra about this. He was there all week.

That'd be waaaaayyy too simple....

a little bird told me that the same design team who did the Nacra F20C is working on a F16...the word is that it will be as spectacular as the F20C

Perhaps my musings that a mixed crew F16 boat being the only way we get multihulls back into the Olympics and the agreement by some of the Sailing press, is perhaps sharpening the minds of the marketing boys and girls at the major manufacturers. <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />

Great!

That just means it will NOT be F16 compliant, but trying to create their own class that's called F something....

Good marketing! <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Mike

I know...

But the truth hurts and I'm not stirring up poop. <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

I'll believe it when I see one! <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Mike

Pete how do you constantly mis-interpret everything we all seem to say, where I come from its called not doing your homework properly and jumping to the wrong conclusions.

Pete,

You do not have much room to gripe on anyone else’s posts relative to being a friendly representative of the class.

With the 104 seeming to die on the vine, I would think Nacra would be interested in the potential market share the F16 class seems to be tapping. They do have a very long history of F’n up classes though you have to admit (Pun intended)

There is room to do some cool things within the framework of the rules, so it will be interesting how they choose to use that potential. Maybe we will see that 30K class killer Macca keeps droning about. Maybe they will pull a Viper move and build something away from the box edges and then lobby the class to change the rules.

Some added marketing power can be a very good thing for the class. Let’s hope the resulting product is a representative of that and not an ego swing to create yet another new thing.

<img src="<>/blush.gif" alt="blush" title="blush" height="15" width="15" /> I know. But I thought we had turned the corner on that. Things have been amiable for awhile now. I began this thread in direct retaliation for unwarranted attacks on the F16 Class. Those attacks have stopped, so should this thread.