There was an incident at last weekend's Deep South Multi-Class Regatta that I'd like to share with this forum and get everyone to think about it especially if you sail a faster boat at multi-class events.
I was racing my A-class in the same start with the F-18's and I-20's. We were staying in touch with the spinnaker boats (they would sail away from us downwind and we would catch back up on the upwind legs). The Hobie 16's were in the start after us and we were lapping that fleet on our 2nd or 3rd time around the windward-leeward course.
In this particular race, I had rounded the A mark just behind an I-20. Both of us bore away on starboard and the I-20 had just set its chute and was shifting into "warp speed". Suddenly they realized they were on a collision course with a Hobie 16 sailing upwind on port tack. The Hobie 16 tried to bear away but that put them more in the path of the charging I-20. The I-20 did a crash jibe with a lot of yelling at the Hobie 16 to do circles. He kept yelling at the H-16 driver who was an older sailor. The H-16 retired from the race and I heard him say to his crew as they turned downwind "I'm just getting in the way of other boats". That must have been a sad sail in for that team.
Certainly the Hobie 16 was wrong (port/starboard) and probably should have been looking more upwind to begin anticipating that they were near the port tack layline putting them in the path of the starboard tackers rounding the A mark. But the I-20 driver was pretty irate and there was no need for that. That driver could have anticipated that the Hobie 16 doing about 6-7 knots upwind was going to have a tough time staying away from his I-20 doing 12-14 knots downwind. All he had to do was get his crew on the wire and heat it up a couple of degrees and sail around the H-16 (it was only blowing about 10 knots with flat water). The same goes with crossing situations upwind. There were several instances where a slower port tack boat thought they would cross me but suddenly realized they were not going to make it. Instead of having them do a poorly executed bear away and risk getting t-boned or have them tack right in front of me, I would wave them across. It really did not cost me any distance and just made the situation safer.
I also saw some spinnaker boats coming in a bit too late on some leeward mark roundings again with Hobie 18's and Hobie 16's trying to establish their rounding "rights" and in the process scaring the hell out of folks. The best thing to do would have been to throttle back with the takedown a few lengths earlier instead of blazing into the 2-boat length circle with all "guns blazing". Again, you lose very little (you may actually have a better tactical rounding) and you gain respect from the other sailors.
Sail fast, sail safe, sail fairly!
Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 230
I'm sure Rick White gives "slow down" advice in "Catamaran Sailing for the '90s". There was a discussion recently as to whether that book was still valid as a refernce. IMHO, this is a perfect example of its validity.
The real problem here is age, imo. Younger people are not yet able to accept that "you have to give a little to get a little". I think this has more to do with the maturation process than personal values.
Hey Bob,
Nice post.
It shows more the character of the sailors, than the character of the boats.
Down here, we have multi class, with mono's too, all the time.
The Beach Cats sailors are always mindful of each other, however. They watch out for one another and offer helpful solutions. We can not afford to lose any cat sailor [ we are a limited bunch to start ]
It sounds like the non spin cats were more mindful than the spin cats. Maybe next time, when the spin cat comes blazing in, just position ones self to anticipate a 'block' at the mark, ...then the spin boat came experiance 'being in the way'..[ wrong place at the wrong time with no place to go]...
In last months regatta, I was coming into the upwind mark on port, I usually weave thru the mono's and make it,...well, this time,...not to be!
...tacked to starboard.....the wind [ and my sailing ability] disappeared at the same time [ hopelessly in irons...ugh],....and I was a bobbing obsticle, 30 feet from the starboard side layline of the mark [ port rounding],....yep,..wrong place at the wrong time....the 'true' skippers understood,...the #*@%head ones did not...
..it happens...
..keep it fun!
regards,
Bruce
I-17
St. Croix
USVI
ps....when a Uni goes into irons,..it likes it![ kinda like a wife going shopping ]....and stays there for awhile 🙂 
A lot of jib/main sailors don't fully comprehend what a boat's capabilities are with a spinnaker flying. Spin boats just can't "come up" to avoid a leeward boat and may find themselves in a situation where they MUST bear away in order to keep from capsizing in a gust. I think a little additional knowledge in this sitatuation would have helped...that and cooler heads.
Bob,
you rite, you rite.
They're all just beer can races, after all, when it comes down to it...
sea ya
tami
Thought this should be up at the top.
First of all the I20 guy in your story doesn't sound like a nice guy. Second he isn't necessarily in the right. The situation may not be as cut and dry as port starboard. It is true that the port tack upwind boat is obligated to anticipate that the boat rounding the mark will bear away. However it's often the case that as soon as that spinnaker fills you need to do a bit of an extra bear away to stay in control (or head up to fly the hull). This happens after what can be called the rounding. I think this would be the case if the angle you set the spinnaker at was different from your angle after the spinnaker went up, which is often the case. If this is the case the starboard boat may be changing course in a way that inhibits the port tack boat from keeping clear. This would not be legal. I'm not saying this was exactly what happened but I am saying it's not a cut and dry situation. If I was on the protest committee and realized that the port tack boat was trying to keep clear and could not I would have serious questions for the starboard tack boat. At any rate the I20 sailor made an error that slowed them down. Sometimes it doesn't matter if you are right or wrong.
As far as spinnaker boats not being able to head up in a windward leeward situation, the answer is tough luck. You need to head up and if that causes you to flip then flip you must. This is often a **** young Tornado sailor's initiation into the big leagues and it's perfectly legal. Ask Johnny and Charlie to tell you about their incident with Chris Dickson. It's a funny story. You can hope for sympathy from your competitors but by the rules you are obligated to not get that close to a leeward boat.
And that sir, is the most assholish attitude I could possibly encounter on the race course.
Rounding someone up into the wind on the start line, ok, big deal, but heading up someone so high that they HAVE to capsize in order to avoid contact is grounds for an assbeating. People can get hurt on a capsize, gear can break, and purposely causing one of these situations to occur goes beyond the scope of competitive sportsmanship, into the area known as a "dickhead maneuver".
My two cents.
Maugh, for a beercan race I agree.
If you go and play with the serious boys in grade 1 events, it's tough luck.. But then it's all about going fast, so if they can get away from you faster they wont put you into a "checkmate" situation like that. If they can do it while not slowing down, you better keep clear.
Looking forward and thinking two moves ahead will usually keep you out of such trouble. Shouting about turns etc. is uneccesary, a simple "protest" does it.
The described situation sounds like the guys on the I20 did not think far enough forward, even if the Hobie was in error.. In their defense, it's easy to sit here in my armchair and have 20/20 hindsight.
If luffed up like this, I would have dumped the main traveller and let the spi flog. That will usually save your day at the cost of some wear on the spi.
And that sir, is the most assholish attitude I could possibly encounter on the race course.
Rounding someone up into the wind on the start line, ok, big deal, but heading up someone so high that they HAVE to capsize in order to avoid contact is grounds for an assbeating. People can get hurt on a capsize, gear can break, and purposely causing one of these situations to occur goes beyond the scope of competitive sportsmanship, into the area known as a "dickhead maneuver".
My two cents.
I agree.
As a spin boat driver, I always assumed those boats not in my class were "obstacles" and needed to be avoided through good strategy.
Knowing that non-spin boats don't always realize what a spin boat will do on a turn leaves all that much more responsibility with the spin boat driver.
I think everyone agrees on the rules of the road, but why make the H-16 do a turn? I could see that if the H-16 and N20 were racing open fleet against each other, but I suspect they were in different classes. In that case, there seems to be no advantage gained by the H-16 getting tangled up with the N20.
If I were in a spin boat in a different class (or even different course) than another group of boats, I just do my best to negotiate around them with as little loss of position in my fleet as possible. It's all part of the tactical plan.
It's my duty to avoid a collision, regardless of whether I have right of way or not.
Please understand my position is based on the concept that BOTH boats were doing their best to avoid this messy situation. Yes, the N20 was stuck luffing or gybing to avoid contact. Yes, the H-16 should have known they would get run down by spin boats and worked to stay out of trouble. But we're all not in a perfect world. If we were, we would all tie for first place...
But sending a boat to the sidelines just sounds a little harsh, unless it's a professional (money earning) race.
I guess I'm spoiled that most races put spin and non-spin boats on different courses, or plan the starts to reduce the chance of pileups at mark roundings...
And that sir, is the most assholish attitude I could possibly encounter on the race course.
Rounding someone up into the wind on the start line, ok, big deal, but heading up someone so high that they HAVE to capsize in order to avoid contact is grounds for an assbeating. People can get hurt on a capsize, gear can break, and purposely causing one of these situations to occur goes beyond the scope of competitive sportsmanship, into the area known as a "dickhead maneuver".
My two cents.
Who's the [censored], the guy who defended his clear air or the guy who broke the rules to try and take it?
That is probably the only hope for a meaningful solution, imo.
I don't really give a crap what the rules say,
If someone causes me to capsize on the course because of some maneuver they pulled and there was nothing I could have done about it, then that person is going to hear about it later.
You're stuck in the "rules of sailing say I can do this" while I'm more in line with the "rules of being a good person and caring for the well-being of others and their property say that I shouldn't."
Too many people think that because their "racing" means that they can be a douchebag and get away with it because they're playing inside the rules. I know my opinion isn't popular amongst those "serious" or "competitive" or "driven" racers.
Again, just so we're clear, I'm not talking about using the rules to give you an advantage on the course, I'm talking about using them to cause an accident that otherwise wouldn't have happened.
MAUGH17
You'll do better toning down the rhetoric. I happen to agree with you, but you can't win your point with this tone. And, you are making a VERY important point.
If this win at all cost mentality becomes the norm, I'll leave the sport. For me, either the sport will be somewhat genteel or I'll find another sport.
btw- there is a monohuller in my club that has caused two collisions in port/starboard entcounters. He was clearly wrong in both cases and just doesn't care. I don't speak to him, break bread with him or acknowledge him in any way. The problem is that others do.
I doubt if the I20 driver in this case cares what anyone thinks. Until he is censured he will continue.
We had similar situtations at the Hobie Tiger and Hobie 17 North Americans in Monterey, CA two years ago. In most races, we had seperation, but on occasion, we did end up together. Roundings at the windward mark, and running before the spin flying Tigers did make for some interesting conditions. The conditions were about 15 to 20 knots, and five foot waves. Solution: anticipate, keep clear, and keep under control.
Caleb
A couple of points about my post:
1. The I20 sailor in my story is a nice guy. He got wound up when he found himself in the situation I described. I'd bet he agrees 100% with me and will know what to do next time. I do not believe he would have filed a protest if the H-16 had continued their race.
2. Maugan - You're calling an Olympic silver medalist a pretty strong name. He is 100% right. If you race and put yourself in a position to be luffed by a leeward boat, tough cookies if you flip. Anticipation and strategy are part of the game. If you don't want that kind of risk, better not get on the race course!
3. One of my concerns is many drivers get pre-occupied sometimes with a chute set and/or what the crew is doing while they should focus only on driving and positioning their boat. Let the forward guy do his job. You put the boat where it needs to be. My observation of this incident was just that. The driver was pre-occupied with the chute set and suddenly found himself in his precarious position. If there would have been a protest with me as a witness to what happened, he probably would have been tossed rather than the H-16 who was trying to anticipate what to do (even though he seemed to freeze up initially).
My main point is that those of us driving the faster boats in these events need to keep our eyes ahead and plan our moves up or down the course to not only race better but stay safe.
Later,
Bob
I didn't read the whole thread and am a little rusty on rules, but isn't the overatkingboat suppose to keep clear?
According to book by my rules guru Dave Perry Page 104 (then page 114) addresses a situation like this.
[color]"When boats approach each other, they must continually assess the situation in terms of what are the probable chances that I may hit this other boat or vice versa?
This judgement should factor in:
what the reponses have been from the other boat,
whether the other boat is keeping a good lookout,
what the sailing conditions are like and how well a boat of the class involved maneuvers in such conditions,
who the sailors on the other boat are, and
is there anything at all peculiar about the way the other boat is being handled?"
Rule 16.1 - Changing Course
When a right-of- way boat changes course she shall give the other boat room to keep clear. The give-way boat will need to keep clear. Assuming the give-way boat reacts promptly and in a seaman-like way the right of way boat must give her enough space and time.
[color]It could be argued that the right-of-way boat did not give the give-way boat ample space and time to react. The give-way boat was making effort to get out of the way.
I think this would have been interesting to see how the judges would interprete this in the protest room if there was a protest that ensued.
Later,
Dan
OK I will add my 2 cents in this.
First, back to Bob Hodges initial scenario. Both boats screwed up in a big way. First the H 16 was on the port layline approaching the weather mark in a mixed fleet with spinnaker boats rounding. Why? That is plain stupid. Why place yourself in a situation where you have no rights and you have to weave through traffic? Frankly in a windy event with mixed skill levels present, you are just asking to get hit hard. Even if you get by the ones going downwind, now you have to tack at the windward mark with no rights. As far as the I 20 goes, delaying the spinnaker set a few seconds because there was a lot of traffic would have been a good idea. Hailing protest and following through with it would have been fine also. Yelling repeated insults on the race course is not acceptable although I have to admit getting mad enough to do it myself a time or 2. We all share the same water and are suposed to be having a good time.
As far as whether you could head a spinnaker boat up and make it flip, what would be the point? First off you might violate rule 16.1 if you are not careful. Secondly his mast is likely going to come down on top of you. By the time you extricate his mast from your shrouds, your race is over anyway, and you have an enemy for life. There is a good chance one or the other of you had some significant damage (think rule 14.2). Seems like a lose- lose situation for me.
This all brings up a good point. Different fleets have different values and norms. On a hobie 14 or 16 I wouldn’t think twice about enforcing my rights in a mark rounding, even if I know there will be chaos and a possible minor collision. Nor would I think twice about heading up a boat that was rolling me ½ boat length away. In the A cat, or a spinnaker boat I would not chance it, except in some cases at a Nationals. We all sail under the same rules, but the expectations are different depending on the fleet and the event.
Sail fast
Eric Anderson
I think it can be very scary having boats of widely different speeds on the same course. That's why I don't like to race my Wave in multi-class regattas. I feel like a tractor on a freeway. When those spinnaker boats are flying downwind, if I can't see the people on their boat, I figure they can't see me, either. When one of them is coming straight at me, I usually just stop my boat to let them go by and try to figure out which way to jump if they hit me.
I like the way Rick sets up the courses for Tradewinds because it greatly reduces the interactions between the slow boats and the fast boats.
Correct me if I'm wrong here please, but I thought the Hobie had the right of way being the upwind boat and if the spin is up the 20 must be going downwind.
Also, let me say I have been in a situation where I was upwind with an spin boat coming down toward me when he got close he jibed but he was so close I started to tack and I was trying to stay out of the way by we got pretty close.My thought was he knew I had the right of way but was using all his speed before changing course.
Remember, they were on opposite tacks so starboard/port takes precedence. You're thinking windward/leeward if they were both sailing on the same tack.
In this case, if the I-20 had immediately jibed to port after the A-rounding and been on a collision course with the H-16 still going upwind on port tack, the H-16 would have been the right of way boat.
Bob Hodges
heh? really?
I agree with Stank - spin boat should take into account the incoming traffic at the mark when setting the chute, they have to give the Hobie 16 the time to avoid and spin boats tend to wobble their course as we round the mark and set the chute...leaves it tough for the 16 to avoid - especially if they're not fully aware of the course limitations of a spin boat.
Also note that almost all of this can be avoided if the RC chooses to drop an offset at the A mark 20 or 30 feet away. I think this is especially important in mixed fleets sharing an A.
C'mon guys! We're not in Court! This isn't litigation!
Further, this wasn't even an Olympic competition.
It isn't cool to run people off the water!
I don't really give a crap what the rules say,
If someone causes me to capsize on the course because of some maneuver they pulled and there was nothing I could have done about it, then that person is going to hear about it later.
You're stuck in the "rules of sailing say I can do this" while I'm more in line with the "rules of being a good person and caring for the well-being of others and their property say that I shouldn't."
Too many people think that because their "racing" means that they can be a douchebag and get away with it because they're playing inside the rules. I know my opinion isn't popular amongst those "serious" or "competitive" or "driven" racers.
Again, just so we're clear, I'm not talking about using the rules to give you an advantage on the course, I'm talking about using them to cause an accident that otherwise wouldn't have happened.
I've found that the best approach is to understand exactly what the rules allow and then be a nice guy anyway. All the while expecting that you will not be treated any better than the rules require.
It's for this reason that you really do need to "give a crap" about what the rules say.
First, I don't care if he's the dali lhama,
If he cares what some nobody, talentless clown of a sailor calls him, thats his business. I'm sure he's a big boy and can take the "heat".
Second, when I say "I don't care what the rules say" I mean it in the context of the rest of my post.
"I don't care if the rule says you can do it, you left me no recourse and you caused me to flip, you did it on purpose and I think you're an a-hole on account of it."
Now I don't know whether this was the situation during the mentioned race, because I wasn't there. I'm speaking in generalities and probably took rhody's comment out of context, but I strongly disagree that causing your competitor to flip is within the bounds of good sportsmanship and the spirit of yacht racing. If it is, then I'm in the wrong sport and peace out. This aint no nascar.
I'll risk getting hurt and breaking my boat on account of my own actions, or even others' noviceness or mistakes. However, I'm not willing to go out there on a course where theres a headhunter that would, if given the opportunity, cause an accident in the name of competition and play it off when confronted "hey I did nothing wrong according to the rules". Maybe I'm just a big fat baby then.
Then again, the rules are supposedly written to prevent this sort of thing from happening.
[color]"When boats approach each other, they must continually assess the situation in terms of what are the probable chances that I may hit this other boat or vice versa?
This judgement should factor in:
what the reponses have been from the other boat,
whether the other boat is keeping a good lookout,
what the sailing conditions are like and how well a boat of the class involved maneuvers in such conditions,
who the sailors on the other boat are, and
is there anything at all peculiar about the way the other boat is being handled?"
Rule 16.1 - Changing Course
When a right-of- way boat changes course she shall give the other boat room to keep clear. The give-way boat will need to keep clear. Assuming the give-way boat reacts promptly and in a seaman-like way the right of way boat must give her enough space and time.
[color]It could be argued that the right-of-way boat did not give the give-way boat ample space and time to react. The give-way boat was making effort to get out of the way.
I think this would have been interesting to see how the judges would interprete this in the protest room if there was a protest that ensued.
Later,
Dan
That about covers it.
The slow (or slower) boats are in the dead zone if they approach the windward mark on Port - Just don't do it.
Scary to read above that people do not understand the basic Port vs Stbd and W vs L rules!
The golden rule with these situations (where a starboard boat is coming down wid, onto/at a prot boat coming up wind) is this:
"The Port boat only has to react to what the Stbd boat does, and the Stbd boat has to give the port boat room to do it"
A follow up example might help.
If the stbd boat is hit by a big gust, it cannot assume that it may bear off to avoid a capsize if the port boat is trying to avoid it (and is close enough that the stbd boats actions my preclude it avoiding).
So if you see a very large gust coming (and you are the Stbd boat), it may pay to "establish" your new course early by bearing off early, thus giving the port boat extra time to react.
[color] ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear astern shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead.
[color] These boats were not on the same tack therefore one was not overtaking the other. And this rule only applies until overlap is established. Ultimately it means you can not drive up someones sterns.
Also, let me say I have been in a situation where I was upwind with an spin boat coming down toward me when he got close he jibed but he was so close I started to tack and I was trying to stay out of the way by we got pretty close.My thought was he knew I had the right of way but was using all his speed before changing course.
You are mixing headings with positions. An upwind boat is one closer to the source of the wind not the boat that is beating. The upwind boat is referred to as the windward boat. The spin boat going downwind must be to the windward of the beating boat before a crossing situation would arise.
And then, windward/leeward only applies to boats on the same tacks. In this case the boats on different tacks rule applies.
[color] ON OPPOSITE TACKS
When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear of a starboard-tack boat.
"I don't care if the rule says you can do it, you left me no recourse and you caused me to flip, you did it on purpose and I think you're an a-hole on account of it."
I strongly disagree that causing your competitor to flip is within the bounds of good sportsmanship and the spirit of yacht racing. If it is, then I'm in the wrong sport and peace out. This aint no nascar.
Maybe I'm just a big fat baby then.
Then again, the rules are supposedly written to prevent this sort of thing from happening.
If you are on the last lap of a race. You are heading for the bottom mark (flying your spinnaker), with a beat still to go. You know if you get to the bottom mark first, you can hold the other cat off to the finish. He is to windward of you, has just picked up a gust, is bearing off, and is coming down on you quite fast and will take your wind roll over the top of you and get to the mark ahead of you.
You will not try to luff him up 
He knows the rules. If he puts himself in that position to try and win the race - that's his problem.
I am sure that the guys who will be racing against you this season will now know that they can chance a few dodgy moves on you because you will not defend yourself 