I don't think that a slower boat has any rights to luff a clearly faster boat that is overtaking it; not according to the sailing rules. The slower (leeward) boat has the right to set his desired course prior to the overtaking but not to alter it constantly or even alter it after the overtaking has commenced in earnest.
The boat that is being overtaken must maintain it course till he has been fully overtaken. Of course there is some slow boat babbling about establishing an overlap first. As if that is at all realistic when a speed difference of 10 knots exist between a H16 and I-20 on the downwind leg. But the idea is the same; the spirit of the rule is still the same.
The intent or spirit of the rules are that a boat which is moving in to overtake a slower boat gets rights as soon as he is no longer able to avoid mayhem if the other boat would alter it's course. When being overtaken by a spinnaker boat to luff then that means you can't luff him up at the last moment. You can when he is still some distance away and he can still bear down and go underneath but not later. This has nothing to do with windward/leeward as that only applies for situations were there isn't a clear case of one boat overtaking the other OR when setting up courses prior to the overtaking manouvre commencing. When you are side by side (or close when on cats) then you can't luff the overtaking boat, although many people think so. You are required to maintain your old course till the overlap (overtaking) has ended. If you don't then your are failing the rule to stay clear of other boats when engaging in a manouvre or course alteration.
There are more sailing rules then starboard/port and windward/leeward. And there are seperate rules for situations were one boat overtakes another. I wish more people would learn these additional rules.
Then there is also that great sailing rule that states that no boat or crew may force his rights when that leads to a unavoidable dangerous situation or even a collision. When a collision occurs then the luffing boat will be found in error as well. And it will be open to disqualification or even worse. It may even turn out that the luffing boat is guilty and has to pay the damages.
And otherwises we have the sportmanship rule which will make mince meat out of any Hobie 16 luffing a I-20's that is under spinnaker. You have no rights to block a clearly faster vessel from overtaking you once it has been decided on which side you will be overtaken.
In direct answer to the question :
The guy who thinks he can defend his clear air by insisting on his "right" to being ignorant about the other sailing rules which give rights to the other boat in situations like this.
Personally, I think any crew actively causing a dangerous situation because of some perceived rights are ....
Wouter
You will not try to luff him up
This is really scary folks, people don't know their rules !
Dermot, the rules give you the right to MAINTAIN your course through the above situation, not to ALTER it amidst of the situation developping.
This is a big difference.
If you had luffed him prior to the gust when he was still behind you, higher and sailing his old course then everything is okay. If he then gets hit by the gust and can't stay clear of you (while you maintain your course) then he simply has to crash it. You have all the rights. He is out of luck.
HOWEVER, you are at fault if you luff him after the gust that'll see him legally overtake you when you had maintained your course !
If you even force a crash on him then you are seriously at fault and can even be disqualified from the event all together with possible wider future sanctions.
Wouter
>Then again, the rules are supposedly written to prevent this sort of thing from happening.<
(Multi classes is another story as you have already expressed.)
(Multi classes is another story as you have already expressed.)
On another tack.
I think it is interesting how Iceboat rules handle the downhill ROW. (please read rules below)
With the incursion of spinnaker cats, perhaps they should follow the iceboats lead in OD Class racing downwind???
RULE 4.
When two yachts sailing
OFF-THE-WIND are on the same tack, the LEEWARD YACHT shall keep clear.
When two yachts sailing
ON-THE-WIND are on the same tack, the WINDWARD YACHT shall keep clear.
http:/
WRONG Wouter !
The windward boat must keep clear. THis is why people must be carefull when overtaking with the kite up.
However, the leaward boat cannot come up from miles below to stop a boat overtaking - This is why a lot of the top people talk about establishing "overtaking lanes" downwind - some clear space to allow you to over take.
I don't agree with you Scooby.
The devil is in the details. I wrote " ... that is overtaking it ... "
Once the overtaking has commenced the leeward boat can not luff the overtaking boat. The leeward boat will then fail the "stay clear and allow room to others" rule that applies when changing its course or initiating manouvres. If the luffing is done after an overlap has been established then the leeward boat will also fail the rules that govern overtaking.
The courses (luffing) must be established prior to the overtaking situation occuring.
In effect you can not ACTIVELY force a flip or crash on any windward boat by ACTIVELY luffing at the time because this means that the windward boat was left without any option to stay clear except crash and therefor you will fail the "... allow room to others to stay clear of you ..." part of the rules.
If the windward boat misjudges the situation and has to flip or crash to avoid contact WHILE you are maintaining your old course then yes you have all the rights. But only in this situation.
Many people think you can ACTIVELY luff a windward boat in (all) situations, but that is not true. There are quite a few situations where one can not do this. And there are quite a few rules that rule against this.
One particular rule states that you can't actively luff a windward boat onto the start vessel. Many people forget about that one as well. If the windward boat is sailing close-hauled along side you and he can just clear the starting vessel while maintaining this course then the you as the leeward boat have no luffing rights. If he is also overtaking you and has established an overlap then you won't have luffing rights for this reason either.
Wouter
Knowing that non-spin boats don't always realize what a spin boat will do on a turn leaves all that much more responsibility with the spin boat driver.
I think everyone agrees on the rules of the road, but why make the H-16 do a turn? I could see that if the H-16 and N20 were racing open fleet against each other, but I suspect they were in different classes. In that case, there seems to be no advantage gained by the H-16 getting tangled up with the N20.
If I were in a spin boat in a different class (or even different course) than another group of boats, I just do my best to negotiate around them with as little loss of position in my fleet as possible. It's all part of the tactical plan.
It's my duty to avoid a collision, regardless of whether I have right of way or not.
Please understand my position is based on the concept that BOTH boats were doing their best to avoid this messy situation. Yes, the N20 was stuck luffing or gybing to avoid contact. Yes, the H-16 should have known they would get run down by spin boats and worked to stay out of trouble. But we're all not in a perfect world. If we were, we would all tie for first place...
But sending a boat to the sidelines just sounds a little harsh, unless it's a professional (money earning) race.
I guess I'm spoiled that most races put spin and non-spin boats on different courses, or plan the starts to reduce the chance of pileups at mark roundings...
SURVEY SAYS 96! "It's my duty to avoid a collision,regardless of whether I have right of way". That about says it all in my book in everything but the olympics then your in ramming mode.
Now I don't know whether this was the situation during the mentioned race, because I wasn't there. I'm speaking in generalities and probably took rhody's comment out of context, but I strongly disagree that causing your competitor to flip is within the bounds of good sportsmanship and the spirit of yacht racing. If it is, then I'm in the wrong sport and peace out. This aint no nascar.
Wouter, I am not sure if you purposely missread other peoples statements so that you can then shout that people do not know the rules, or if you just take things up the wrong way. I was answering the above quote and trying to show that you must take resposibility for your actions and not say something like "OK maybe I am in the wrong, but you have to let me pass you anyway because I might capsize my boat"
I was talking about 2 similar cats racing downwind. One is maybe 5 to 10 boatlengths behind the other and slightly to windward. The first cat sees the second one getting a gust and coming up fast behind. The first cat will luff up to stop the second overtaking to windward (It is called racing you know). If the second cat decides to commit to passing the first to windward and gets a stronger gust, which might capsize him because of his spinnaker, the first does not have to bear away to let him pass safely. The overtaking boat must stay clear and not get himself into that situation. It is very much outside "the bounds of good sportsmanship and the spirit of yacht racing" to try and win a race because you know that, even though you are in the wrong, a competitor will back off and let you pass to avoid an accident caused by your bullying and disregard for the rules.
It may not be Nascar, but it is similar to Formula 1. You do not dive down the inside and expect the driver you are trying to overtake to get out of your way just because you missjudged your braking.
Did you mean (overatkingboat), The UberRatkingBoat? There is a load of them already.
Sorry Dermot,
I understood you meant continue to luff up even when the boat was bearing down on you. That would be a fault of you. I misunderstood then.
Wouter
heh? really?
I agree with Stank - spin boat should take into account the incoming traffic at the mark when setting the chute, they have to give the Hobie 16 the time to avoid and spin boats tend to wobble their course as we round the mark and set the chute...leaves it tough for the 16 to avoid - especially if they're not fully aware of the course limitations of a spin boat.
Also note that almost all of this can be avoided if the RC chooses to drop an offset at the A mark 20 or 30 feet away. I think this is especially important in mixed fleets sharing an A.
There was just such an offset mark to avoid just such a situation. The H16 sailor either had a death wish or more likely didn't realize the potential hazard of coming into A on the port layline with spinnaker boats above him.
There were quite a few people at the skippers meeting who were unclear on the purpose of an offset mark. I wonder if this H16 sailor was one of them. Its unfortunate they got yelled at - better to give them benefit of the doubt and talk to them on the beach afterwards in a constructive manner, but I can relate to the I-20 sailor - you aren't always thinking straight in the middle of a situation.
Is it justifiable for boats in different classes to protest one another? An early post indicated perhaps not, but I disagree. If you don't protest the other boat then they may gain advantage against other boats in their class by the foul.
I'm amazed at the level of ignorance of basic rules in this post and also at some fun races. Perhaps its because the RRS is a little dry reading and there are a quite few rules to remember. But then there are some great books and websites with diagrams to explain situations like this.
I'm thinking of a short rules seminar with a quiz and prizes at the next well populated fun regatta in our area to increase awareness.
And as for all the hot air about closing the door on an overtaking spin boat, how many times have you guys flipped with the spin and how many times has anyone or thing got hurt? (Not often). Normally the only hurt thing is the pride of the person who tried to roll someone a little too close. All's fair in love and war. Dermot's formula one braking analogy is a great one.
It can be a good thing to separate classes onto different courses (such as slow boats on a shorter inside course), but Lake Charles is a little on the small side for this.
Great topic Bob!
Chris.
You will not try to luff him up
This is really scary folks, people don't know their rules !
Dermot, the rules give you the right to MAINTAIN your course through the above situation, not to ALTER it amidst of the situation developping.
This is a big difference.
If you had luffed him prior to the gust when he was still behind you, higher and sailing his old course then everything is okay. If he then gets hit by the gust and can't stay clear of you (while you maintain your course) then he simply has to crash it. You have all the rights. He is out of luck.
HOWEVER, you are at fault if you luff him after the gust that'll see him legally overtake you when you had maintained your course !
If you even force a crash on him then you are seriously at fault and can even be disqualified from the event all together with possible wider future sanctions.
Wouter
Not exactly. You can luff the windward boat as long as you do so within 16.1 giving the boat room to keep clear. If the windward boat reaches the point where she can't head up anymore without flipping she always has the option to slow down and go behind.
Basicaly the leward boat can go head to wind and long as she does so slowly enough to give the windward boat the oportunity to luff the spinnaker and go behind (most people forget about this option in the heat of battle).
11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall
keep clear of a leeward boat.
16 CHANGING COURSE
16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other
boat room to keep clear.
The only time the leward boat is limmited is when she has come from clear astern (within two of her hull lengths)into the leward position. Then she can luff but only to her proper course.
17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
17.1 If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths
to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper
course while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in
doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not
apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule
13 to keep clear.
Proper Course: A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the
absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no
proper course before her starting signal.
Just a few comments.
With respect to the rules. Hey... its the game... if you are not playing by the rules... why bother playing. Blustering about this or that and declaring screw the rules is just childish. Please go home and don't play with the other kids.
Bob and Scooby's point is that in regattas with very different kinds of boats... AND a WIDE RANGE of skipper experience... Everyone has to think a few steps ahead.
The older H16 sailor probably had NO IDEA what was going to happen to him on the port layline in a race course without an offset and spin boats on the course. He probably did not remember this circumstance being so bad in the past when he raced. Many at the event are not up to speed reacting to situations.... They need some coaching before they head out to the race course... Why have the damn skippers meeting if you are not going to offer some training for those out of practice or new to the game.
Perhaps you don't... but I WANT that older sailor to bring his boat out for the first time in years and keep on playing the game.... to me... its a failure of all the sailors at the regatta if this fellow quits because of a situation on the water.
Would somebody be screaming on the water if it were a couple of kids out there on the 16?
Yes the rules book is bland. That is why I bought Dave Perry's Understanding the Rules book. It is fun and easy to understand. Everyone who doesn't know the rules good should get it. I will go over it with Ashleigh also.
Doug Snell
Hboei 17
Soon to be Mystere 4.3
www.tcdyc.com
Sorry Dermot,
I understood you meant continue to luff up even when the boat was bearing down on you. That would be a fault of you. I misunderstood then.
Wouter
Wrong Wouter !
The mast abeam rule has gone ! Rodysail's post quotes the rules and explains it very well
Basicaly the leward boat can go head to wind and long as she does so slowly enough to give the windward boat the oportunity to luff the spinnaker and go behind (most people forget about this option in the heat of battle).
11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall
keep clear of a leeward boat.
16 CHANGING COURSE
16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other
boat room to keep clear.
The only time the leward boat is limmited is when she has come from clear astern (within two of her hull lengths)into the leward position. Then she can luff but only to her proper course.
17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
17.1 If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths
to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper
course while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in
doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not
apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule
13 to keep clear.
Proper Course: A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the
absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no
proper course before her starting signal.
Also, on the start line, If I have positioned myself so that as I countdown the last 10 seconds, I sheet in onto a close hauled course which will take me (if I have judged it right)close to the side of the "Start vessel". If sombody else tries to get between me and the start vessel, I can't luff up head to wind, but I can maintain my close hauled course and do not have to let them in. Once again if they put themselves in that position it is their hard luck.
Spot on, Dermot.
I, for one, do miss the 'mast abeam' rule, but all that has happened is that you need to plan slightly more when overtaking.
I don't understand your comment about not forcing someone into a RC boat though Wouter. Dermot has it right IMO. I've certainly forced people to go round again at the start, and on one occasion they hit, and sank, the RC boat. That hasn't changed, if you are laying the RC boat (or spacer mark) you DON'T let anyone in above you! If they are trying to get in above a boat that is closehauled (or lower) and laying the end of the line (it works on port at the pin too), they have no rights and are barging.
I dont miss the "mast abeam" rule at all. Some of the old-timers in our club still hail "mast abeam" at us sometimes, and it always confirms our suspicion that they have not read the rules for the last 8 (?) years (it also cracks us up, and we make sure to stay away from them as it's just non-serious racing).
I am a bit unsure about the barging rule, if you by not letting him in cause him to hit the RC boat and does damage, will you also be penalized for not foreseeing that?
The damage to that particular RC boat was primarily their fault for not having a spacer mark on a line that had to accommodate 50+ cats on a fairly windy day at a Nationals. No sympathy from any competitors that day!
Rather than go into a specific incident (incidentally I WAS summoned by the protest committee, but exonerated) I don't think the boat nearest the mark or RC boat can be held accountable for anything if they are making a fair, legal start. Chances are that there will be a whole gaggle of boats to leeward and allowing a barging boat in can cause massive problems further down the line and possibly injure people (don't forget that there may well be crews already out on the wire). No, I feel that any boat that reaches in with boats below gets all they deserve if they push the point, coupled with which, it'll be the guilty that suffer rather than those who are playing by the rules.
BTW I've been caught out in the past and, although I couldn't have been described as reaching in, been forced up by a boat below me and had to come to a crash stop so that I could duck into the line behind the most windward boat. It was my fault, I don't blame the other guy, it's just part of racing. 
Basicaly the leward boat can go head to wind and long as she does so slowly enough to give the windward boat the oportunity to luff the spinnaker and go behind (most people forget about this option in the heat of battle).
I should add to this that "slowly enough" is not meant to mean slowly. The windward boat must react quickly and evasively.
As far as I know that's not written in the rules but it is how the to judge guys have interpreted it. [see Perry's book]
I have been victimized by bargers in the past, and had the protest committee refuse to penalize the barger.
I would like to see the RC set an anti-barging mark DOWNWIND of the start line such that a high-speed approach is much more difficult for the barger. Even 10 meters would be effective, imo.
Hey Bob, Nice rules discussion. It's to bad you have to be called names for explaining the basic rules. Of course your correct on all your explanations.
It seems to me people make things much more complicated than they need to be.
If you are trying to drive over someone, they will take you up. You can't take them above a mark and you have to give room to finish.
If you try and squeeze in at the committee boat, expect to get scraped off. That hole you see is a mirage and will disapear very quickly.
If you are on H16 and there is a pack of Tigers coming downwind at you, get out of the way. They sound like a freight train and can't avoid you as easily as you can avoid them. Your not racing them. When I'm being driven over by a bigger faster boat I just ask that they make it as quick and painless as possible, don't fight it.
Who has not overstood A on port tack and came in hot. It happens all the time. No one wants to tack under other boats and it's not always easy to find a clean lane.
The H16 should have went up instead of down. As was mentioned, this type of things should be addressed with new or older sailors coming back.
We always have a post skippers meeting gathering with people that need a explanation of the starting sequence and some basic rules.Addressing what to do around spin boats is a great topic to add.
This year a buddy system has been formed to assign an A fleet skipper to a novice and help with boat setup,rules and questions someone new may have.
The one thing I have not seen mentioned is that if the I20 boat used profanity in expressing his concerns, then he can be tossed no matter how correct he may have been.
I think it falls under Gross Misconduct.
Maybe Bob can explain.
I have been racing(if I can keep up) with Bob(Rhody)since he went to cats and he is a perfect gentleman on and off the water.
I have had bargers scraping the paint off my hull, with nowhere to go becouse of leeward boats as well. But I was wondering what a proper jury would do. John was exonerated and that is good.
And that sir, is the most assholish attitude I could possibly encounter on the race course.
Rounding someone up into the wind on the start line, ok, big deal, but heading up someone so high that they HAVE to capsize in order to avoid contact is grounds for an assbeating. People can get hurt on a capsize, gear can break, and purposely causing one of these situations to occur goes beyond the scope of competitive sportsmanship, into the area known as a "dickhead maneuver".
My two cents.
So if someone would cause you to follow the rules you want to give him an "assbeating". Makes me want to race!!!! Just make sure when you open that can of whupass that its big enough. 
Clayton
Somebody mention wup butt?
![[Linked Image]](http://members.cox.net/smbump/OU/WhupAss.jpg)
And that sir, is the most assholish attitude I could possibly encounter on the race course.
Rounding someone up into the wind on the start line, ok, big deal, but heading up someone so high that they HAVE to capsize in order to avoid contact is grounds for an assbeating. People can get hurt on a capsize, gear can break, and purposely causing one of these situations to occur goes beyond the scope of competitive sportsmanship, into the area known as a "dickhead maneuver".
My two cents.
So if someone would cause you to follow the rules you want to give him an "assbeating". Makes me want to race!!!! Just make sure when you open that can of whupass that its big enough.
Clayton
I also have a problem with the whole capsizing because you have to head up thing. Blow the chute. The whole heading down thing is to stay powered up, moving fast, and hauling butt, and saving yourself while doing that. I think we very often forget that a viable option in a lot of cases is to simply free the sheets, slow down, and maneuver. I've seen an incident or two where the boats couldn't maneuver properly to avoid because they forgot they needed to adjust the sail trim to help steer. I've seen powerboats be guilty of the same thing - threading through a bunch of sailboats when all they had to do was cut power to let the other boats go by.
I don't agree with you Scooby.
The devil is in the details. I wrote " ... that is overtaking it ... "
Once the overtaking has commenced the leeward boat can not luff the overtaking boat. The leeward boat will then fail the "stay clear and allow room to others" rule that applies when changing its course or initiating manouvres. If the luffing is done after an overlap has been established then the leeward boat will also fail the rules that govern overtaking.
The courses (luffing) must be established prior to the overtaking situation occuring.
In effect you can not ACTIVELY force a flip or crash on any windward boat by ACTIVELY luffing at the time because this means that the windward boat was left without any option to stay clear except crash and therefor you will fail the "... allow room to others to stay clear of you ..." part of the rules.
If the windward boat misjudges the situation and has to flip or crash to avoid contact WHILE you are maintaining your old course then yes you have all the rights. But only in this situation.
Many people think you can ACTIVELY luff a windward boat in (all) situations, but that is not true. There are quite a few situations where one can not do this. And there are quite a few rules that rule against this.
One particular rule states that you can't actively luff a windward boat onto the start vessel. Many people forget about that one as well. If the windward boat is sailing close-hauled along side you and he can just clear the starting vessel while maintaining this course then the you as the leeward boat have no luffing rights. If he is also overtaking you and has established an overlap then you won't have luffing rights for this reason either.
Wouter
Then you need to re-read your rules book, you are talking total Crap.....The following Rules apply:
11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall
keep clear of a leaward boat.
16 CHANGING COURSE
16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other
boat room to keep clear.
The only time the leaward boat is limited is when she has come from clear astern (within two of her hull lengths)into the leaward position. Then she can luff but only to her proper course.
17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
17.1 If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths
to leaward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper
course while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in
doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not
apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule
13 to keep clear.
As someone else says abouve, Mast-abeam has gone.
The H16 should have went up instead of down. As was mentioned, this type of things should be addressed with new or older sailors coming back.
We always have a post skippers meeting gathering with people that need a explanation of the starting sequence and some basic rules.Addressing what to do around spin boats is a great topic to add.
This year a buddy system has been formed to assign an A fleet skipper to a novice and help with boat setup,rules and questions someone new may have.
The one thing I have not seen mentioned is that if the I20 boat used profanity in expressing his concerns, then he can be tossed no matter how correct he may have been.
The H-16 in this post was beating upwind and was below the port tack layline. It would have been worse if he had tried to tack from my vantage point. The best thing that could have happened in this case was for the I-20 to head up slightly (they would not have flipped) and the H-16 to bear off slightly. Instead, they both held their course until it was suddenly very close.
The I-20 sailor never used any profanity and per my previous post is a very nice sailor. Again, I think he was pre-occupied with his set and the H-16 sailor was not paying enough attention to boats coming down the leg. Lesson learned here is both sailors should have been more heads up. The right of way boat is in control and should try to communicate what they want the give way boat to do if possible. That's good sportmanship and is very common on the race course amongst experienced sailors. BTW, I never protest a sailor who is trying to avoid me even if they cause me to alter course. The only time I take it to the protest level is when someone blatantly and knowingly breaks a rule and does not exonerate themselves on the water with a 360. Live and let live (but that does not mean I will let you barge or pass me to windward and if you flip while I take you up, tough luck!).
Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 230
Now you are doing it yourself Dermot, I didn't refer to the "a beam" in this specific situation. I refered to the "keep clear and allow room to the other" rule in this situation.
Now I know why I dislike rule discussions. The bloody things are just to much open to intepretation.
I can't remember whether the "mast a beam" rules was cancelled or not. I have a year 2000 rule book I use so I guess I can be reading from an outdated book here. That would be my mistaken.
However I still claim that if you force another to make a crash by actively luffing up or have him risk collision that you are (probably) at fault as well. Because if he had room to go below then he would have done so; the fact that he was FORCED to flip sort of implies he didn't get enough time/room to stay clear. From this point onward it is up to the personal intepretation of the judges of what "enough" means.
With respect to barging (I agree with you Dermot here) I think the thigns I wrote got misunderstood. I wrote that both baots were close hauled side by side. This is not the same as coming of a beam reach trying to get in. It is my experience that alot of sailors don't know what barging actually is. Often they think it means that nobody can be to their luff side, which is just non-sense.
Anyway, I neither had any need of both rules. I don't do "mast a beam" and I don't start near the committee boat. Too much risk of running into trouble in both situations. I stear clear or threaten to pass above while actually passing the baot through their lee-side. Mostly they think that their windshadow will block me but most of the time it doesn't.
So I think I agree with several others in this thread that you are best by finding ways around problem situations. Once you get into rule conflicts then the damage has already been done.
I think I will leave it at this. Got some video editing to do.
Good thread by the way, guys. Never hurts to cover the rules one more time ahead of the season.
Wouter
Wouter,
So you now understand that rules 11, 16.1 and 17.1 apply and what you said above was wrong ?
And your comments about crashing are also not valid.
If you are going to be capsized by a boat below you taking you higher than the kite will let you, then you should have taken the kite down!
Overtaking to windward (with the kite up) where you do not have a clear overtaking lane is not the place to be.
Remember, if you do have a clear over-taking lane, another boat cannot block you - without being able to justify that the alteration in course was "following their proper course". As they are not allowed to defend for greater than 2 boatlengths below you.
For those that don't have the current rule book.
ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing 2005-2008
I have been following with interest. I forced a Fireball to capsize onto me at a multi-fleet regatta. We were sailing different courses but were both rounding the same mark. He was wanting to continue downwind to the finish whilst I was turning back up for the A-mark. I came broad reaching in with my Nacra5.2 while he was spinnaker sailing downwind. I was overlapped with him for minutes but sailing a much different angle. As I came closer alongside (leeward) I advised him of my intention to go up at the mark. He replied with the mast abeam nonsense. By the time we arrived at the mark I was ahead but still overlapped. So I turned up. And he capsized onto me ripping his spinnaker. He retired and I lost a position.
I would like to say in my defense that I didn't know at the time that he would capsize (no spinnaker exposure). And obviously he was refusing to dowse or cut it loose.
We were both a little bull headed and I hadn't forseen the consequences. I was racing open class and therefore time. He was racing in his fireball class and therefore position. He could have given way without losing position while I would have been losing time.
In my open class racing I often turn around the A-mark to see a few port lay liners coming at me. Our closure rates can be rather high and I know they are sweating it as I round down onto the broad reach. I often have my head down somewhat on the bearaway as we run through the offwind checklist. I just wish the port lay line crowd would knock it off. I bellow starboard, sit down, and hang on. No crash and burns yet.
I, for one, do miss the 'mast abeam' rule, but all that has happened is that you need to plan slightly more when overtaking.
I don't understand your comment about not forcing someone into a RC boat though Wouter. Dermot has it right IMO. I've certainly forced people to go round again at the start, and on one occasion they hit, and sank, the RC boat. That hasn't changed, if you are laying the RC boat (or spacer mark) you DON'T let anyone in above you! If they are trying to get in above a boat that is closehauled (or lower) and laying the end of the line (it works on port at the pin too), they have no rights and are barging.
Correct. Firstly, as long as we all stay mature about it, I think a good debate about different aspects of the rules is great. Helps everybodies understanding and can kill some misconceptions.
Now - the barging thing is 100% correct. Anybody who thinks they can run down over another boat and push between somebody and the start boat should be on good terms with their local boat builder because it will end in tears. I think most experienced racers would have been in the situation where a hole suddently evaporated and very quickly you are on the wrong side of the start boat though (found myself there a few weeks ago )
Tiger Mike