"instant justice in the sand"

Hi Mark -

You'd have to look at the class rules and the SIs for the event - for the Alter Cup's current structure, provisions were made for

beach justice

(a term I thought we'd coined <img src=

alt=

/>) which changed the standard RRS for time limits, etc. Beach Justice is neccessary in determining who is in the next heat at the Championship.

I am hoping, and working with the judges for the upcoming Alter Cup, to see a drastic reduction in the number of protests and requests for redress filed at the Championship - we have twice missed out on winning the St. Petersburg Trophy for Excellence in Race Management because of the number of protests filed. People need to stop trying to improve their position through litigation - maybe the A-Class has indeed taken steps to see a return to a higher level of sportsmanship.

Perhaps your example is an apple and orange comparison.

The Alter cup is more like a college dinghy regatta. Everybody is jumping from boat to boat... Beating/using the rules is viewed as part of the game

You don't really want to argue that the rules and the protest committes are causing a lack of sportsmanship by the sailors do you???

I dont see how you can get DSQ'd if you are not hailed.

I'm asserting that there has been an upswing, IMO, of sailors who are willing to

roll the dice

with a protest committee even when they know they are wrong and they broke a rule. If a class takes steps, either administratively or through adopting a pervasive attitude of disapproval, to reduce the erosion of the Corinthian spirit, then I say

well done.

Better only if its understood by all up front.

Worse if its not.

This was the first protest I have seen at a championship since I have raced in the class. Several of us urged the two sailors to see if they could resolve the incident without taking it to a protest but Ian felt it needed to be heard.

The protest committee was made up of Pease and Jay Glaser who did not sail the race and Ward Cromwell (sailing coach at College of Charleston) who was sailing but did not witness the incident. All are obviously excellent sailors. I do not know the details of the decision as I had to get on the road home.

We in the A-class do try to stress to competitors to resolve incidents if possible on the water. We've been very successful to date and that makes our race committees very happy.

Bob Hodges

I am all for having an organized judge and jury system for relatively major events. The problem is, that on too many occasions, our judge and jury system doesn't work. If frivolous protests would regularly get tossed out of the protest room on their butts, these non-sportsman like things would happen less often. The problem is that stupid protests actually win and THAT is what leads to more racing in the protest room. In the relatively few years I've been sailing, I've seen some real B.S. at many different judicial levels of the sport and organization.

How do you fix it? I'm not really sure....but having an informal, last minute, and possibly untrained protest committee is not the answer (I'm not targeting this event in particular). Having judgments come out that are wrong will make things worse as people see what they can accomplish within that system or feel that they need to step up their game to match those with less sportsmanship. Finding a way to swing more judgments toward caution might help - but again, not sure how you go about that.

Actually overheard in the restroom at Alter Cup:

Yeah, I know I was OCS, but hey... you never know, so I went ahead and filed for redress.

I've seen guys I know and respected lie, cheat and steal. Ugly stuff. <img src=

alt=

/>

The Protest Committee makes an honest effort - but garbage in = garbage out.

This form of resolving the issue is better known as

KANGAROO COURT

I'm not sure I buy into the impromptu meeting in the sand rendering an official decision. I think such meetings could serve to reduce the number of protests filed by persuading someone to drop a protest or to withdraw. How about making it an unofficial pre-hearing to discuss the rules and to test the validity of a protest, the legal equivalent of arbitration prior to litigation.

BTW…54 boats! Well done A cat guys.

Respectfully but strongly disagree - a kangaroo court is a sham with a foregone conclusion where the defense has no opportunity to present a case. The situations discussed here are completely different. Everything in beach justice follows normal RRS procedure - the only difference is that the time limits for filing protest have changed. I think this is good in some cases because it removes the time period in which some might be tempted to alter their testimony to fit a rule or some Dick Rose article. It also ensures that witnesses are still available and the RC can be quickly queried regarding sailing conditions, etc.

As long as the A-Class made provisions in their race documents for such a procedure, then everything is kosher. I submit that the quality of the decision rendered was unlikely to have been negatively impacted by the change in procedure.

The last time I sailed the Alter Cup in 2003 in F-18HT's, we had a block fail for the spinnaker retrieval system during a race. We were first around the weather mark and lost 5-6 boats trying to get the spinnaker up and down with the jammed block sheave. We clawed our way back and passed a competitor who blew a tack at the upwind finish line to finish 4th and felt pretty damn good about it. Later on the beach, we found out this competitor had filed for redress for a similar issue. He won his redress and was given a higher placing than ours in the race. We felt cheated but I think my teammate (Jason Sneed) and I felt better not trying to get a better placing with redress. The block failure could have happened on any boat so we did not think it was fair to request redress.

Peer pressure in a fleet can make a big difference in rules enforcement and I think that is what is working in the A-class to keep the racing clean and fun. Rule breakers will find themselves somewhat ostracized by the rest of the fleet if they practice that behavior.

Bob Hodges

Boo icky protests!
Hooray Beer!

OSYC regattas do not entertain protests. Mr Schneider, you should see our SIs...

Protests will be heard at 2500h at Red's Levee Bar, bring an Uzi.

Hi Bob

Was the beach justice meeting written about following this procedure

16. ARBITRATION
All protests involving rules of Part 2 of the RRS shall be first submitted to arbitration. The arbitration procedure will be posted on the Official Regatta Notice Board as an addendum to the Sailing Instructions. This changes RRS Rule 63.

or were the two individuals way beyond arbitration and now in the protest meeting stage.

Sounds like a combination of peer pressure and arbitration could handle john's complaint about frivoulous protests.

Boudacia
In the north east we have laws against assult weapons... Sadly... we would not be able to protest in your part of the south.

The use of arbitration was posted in the NOR. The actual procedure was to be posted as an addendum to the SIs, though, and is therefore apparently not available online.

The usual arbitration procedure is that if the parties involved are not satisfied with the concensus of the arbitration (not necessarily the decision, but more the interpretations and outside viewpoint) they can go to a formal protest. However, if they are satisfied that a jury of their peers all see the incident in a certain way, then going to a protest will almost certainly result in a similar verdict (and therefore a waste of everyone's time). What I'm not sure of is if holding an arbitration meeting can be done without filing a protest; is the protest withdrawn if it stops at arbritation; does this then count against any US Sailing report re the RC? Some bean counting type issues there.

We are missing all the information presented at the hearing, so we have NO way of knowing why the offending boat was DSQ, and why the affected boat was not given redress. My GUESS is that the hearing revealed that the offending skipper was proven to have recognised the foul, and did not volunteer a penalty turn. Could he have overturned this in a formal hearing? Maybe, but maybe he didn't want to further compound his initial failure to accept fault. Don't know why he wouldn't have RAF'd himself then (retired after finishing) vs accepting a DSQ, though. No idea on why no redress, unless having your tiller knocked out of your hand is no excuse for then hitting the mark and having to do a turn (in traffic). Maybe he was yelling too much and not grabbing the tiller enough 🙂 Total conjecture on my part.

I have no problems with arbitration hearings; maybe they prevent some of the BS protests. They can easily stop a lot of newbie protests between people ignorant of or mixed up on rules. Probably less effective for serious complex issues. If nothing else, they involve a bigger circle of people who can now tell other sailors

we told Joe Sea Lawyer that his protest didn't hold water, but he went ahead anyway

. In the end, a bad reputation is the only penalty for too many protests.

Mark Mark Mark........

Your missing what's important here.

To cap off the week of racing Bob Webbon delivered free pizza at the final awards ceremony.

From the USACA Website.

Have noticed that single handed sailors have very narrow minds on who was at fault. The first thing they check when they touch a mark is if anyone saw them.

IMHO at every skippers meeting any PRO worth his salt stands up and makes it clear that the race is being raced by US sailing rules or state clearly who the ruling body is. After that for those that know the rules will abide by them. For those that don't know the rules, no whining.

Let's face it racing is intense and we love it that way. That doesn't mean bending the rules.

By the way I have a pretty big rant!!
Who came up with the B.S. idea that you could sail an entire race like you didn't foul anybody then do a 360 or 720 before you finish. The rules state a penalty turn must be done as soon possible without disturbing others. I hate it when there is a protest at the first mark involving a pack of 10 boats, the boat that fouled does a penalty turn at the end of the race and only losses one place instead of lossing 10 places. Who started this nonsense I blame America's Cup Racing.

Anybody else know who started it?

J.P.Ayers
Isotope 186

Hey Mark,
Still stirring the pot ,I see:).
Dogtown Yacht Club has a rule where the protester must provide beer for all attending the protest committee.
Needless to say this limits the amount of protests,cuz everybody can come to the protest hearing.
Todd

I really appreciate Dan Wards angle. a little legal wrangling to

test

the protest before actually filing one. This keeps everyones rights intact to argue at a later date if they are that convicted.

I think that doing your penance just before the end started in match racing.

I really don't know. I think it was a

formal

hearing because the protesting sailor wrote out the protest form and submitted it and the protest was heard just like any other protest except it was outside.

Has your generalization above not suggested every singlehanded sailor in this country is a cheater? I think you should clarify as personally, I'm insulted. Maybe that's the case in the Isotope class but very isolated in the A-class and I believe that is one the positive things drawing more sailors to the boat. A new sailor at the Midwinters last week told me it was as much the class as it was the boat that convinced him to purchase one. That made me feel real good about how others see us.

Bob Hodges

As one who is looking to get into cat sailing, and possibly racing, this makes for an enlightening read. While there is much camaraderie demonstrated on this forum, I find it troubling to read this and hear that there is some lacking in sportsmanship when racing. Competitiveness is great, but tossing your moral compass overboard simply to finish higher completely devalues any result you achieve.

This whole discussion makes me wonder whether my wife and I will ever end up doing any racing at all. If events like those described here are at all regular, I suspect we'll opt for just romping around on our own and not worrying about it.

Stuart,
It is hard to think of a sport where there aren't people who

cheat

or try to take advantage of the rules in every way they can. Sailing is probably one of the sports with the least infractions. And at least sailors don't usually get accused of taking steroids. <img src=

alt=

/>

P.S. If you are sailing in small groups, generally a person who is causing problems will be talked to, reprimanded or whatever is necessary to get them to follow the rules properly if they want to continue racing in that group.

Stuart,

I believe you are making the wrong assumptions. In my experience racing catamarans, the sailors are pretty good at observing the major right of way rules and I find the attitude on the race course is way more tolerant and

professional

than you'll find elsewhere. I've gotten more than one comment from yacht club race committees about how much easier it is to run an event for multihull sailors and the high level of sportmanship that is typically displayed.

What I think has been referred to above are petty protests against race committees and redress requests that can tend to sour an event.

The better the fleet, the less possibility for protests as the sailors are more knowledgeable and experienced and just avoid situations that could lead to a rules infraction.

Hope this encourages you to join the multihull racing ranks, it's some of the best racing you can do.

Bob Hodges

First, you will learn sailing, much faster by racing, even if it is in a mixed fleet. If you are worried about getting lapped, bring beer.

Second,

In my experience they are rare. Most of the time, a simple

Protest

on the water takes care of it. “Protest! You tacked to close and I had to head up to avoid you, you owe a circle,” for example takes care of it. I've been to the protest room once or twice, I only remember once vividly. (The protest room: the outside bar instead of the inside bar, The process as I know it: Commodore picks three senior sailors to be Protest Committee, announces protest hearing to take place if no physical damage was done, each side states their case, nothing written down that I know of, Protest Committee asked questions to clarify situation, they get answers, and rules that are applicable are discussed openly.) Everyone learns from protesting, and being protested. If you are afraid of learning or making mistakes, you need to look inside and at the community that you sail with.

I have never been to another club where the environment is as open to making mistakes and getting help like this one. The rules are complicated and hard to learn. Each protest hearing helps everyone learn. Perhaps this is the tipping point of why WRCRA continues to grow cat sailors, instead of just steal them from other classes. And, I believe in stealing sailors from other classes.

One less T20 sailor and one more N20 sailor for example . . . <img src=

alt=

/> Hmmm . . . where are those local F16 and F18 sailors?

I can't speak to the sportsmanship in racing as I'm not involved with racing (too many irons in the fire to dedicate a specific night to sailing). From lurking and reading, I've gathered that it seems a lot like sportsmanship in golf. Mostly handled on the honor system, but if you make a big enough stink about something, you can get other people to back your argument to force the perp to score correctly.

Playing golf, I am a single digit handicapper and love the game. I have no problem with people who don't score correctly(accidentally or intentionally), but I do get irritated when I play with people that obviously don't score correctly/cheat and at the end of the round they're telling everyone what a great round they shot and about the birdie on #12 (which they happened to hit a mulligan or foot wedge). Does it detract from the game? No. I don't play for the bragging rights about my round, I play because I love blasting a drive down the middle of the fairway, sticking the pin with my 8 iron, or chipping in from the fringe. I like just being out on the course.

I suspect the same is true for _most_ of the people out there racing. They're not worried about winning the t-shirt at the end of the day, they just love being on the course, pulling on the sheets, feeling their boat accelerate past the boat next to them.

Don't let a few poor sportsman keep you from doing something you love. If you like the competition, then ignore the cheaters... jump in and go for it.

And ... over time ... the cheaters will be well known amongst your Fleet. So people will discount them when they say they did this or that.

Stuart, if you are at all competitive ... you'll want to race! After all the beer tastes alot better when you share stories with others!

And remember what Robi says:

There are those that will and those that have

.

The delayed penalties clause is in the special provisions section for match racing (Rule C8 or C9 replaces rule 44 of the regular racing rules). Rule 44 simply states that a boat taking a penalty must sail clear of other boats and perform it's circles as soon as reasonably possible.

I think this came about in match racing to try to keep the race alive. Without this rule in match racing, if you foul someone and are behind, the race is essentially decided. Makes for more exciting racing.