"instant justice in the sand"

Hold on.Let me clarify.

Bob, was railing against single handed skippers that think they can cheat over and over again and think that there sailing buddies don't notice. I have no qualms with A-catters nor did I mention them in my rant.

Stuart, one skipper doesn't ruin the fleet it is very rare to find a skipper that deliberately cheats, Single handed racing for me is the only way to go. It is a passion of mine that I can safely say I will do for the rest of my life. Sailing is fun racing is fun but with a little more intensity

if you want

. Don't let my rant keep you from doing something wonderful in your life.

Thanks everyone for responding to my question. Now I blame the match racing circuits.

J.P.
Isotope 186

Stuart,
My experience in racing has been poor. As a rookie my 18 was t-boned and destroyed. I seriously considered never racing again. Changed my mind, entered several races and had fun. Then got into another issue, was discouraged again. I find that the majority of sailors at regattas are great people and fun to be around. There are always a few exceptions. Racing is very fun, you learn alot, and if you can turn off the competitive side its more fun. I plan to race again this year with my wife. We will not try to get on the line for starts, back down whether we have rights or not, and just have fun. I'm not willing to sacrifice the experience of racing over a few instances. I feel I did the right thing both times, don't know that the other skippers can make that same statement without fear of lightning. Go to races, stay back out of the way and learn. My 2 cents.

Windyhillf20,
Sounds like a good plan. I am just curious, though -- when you had those earlier problems, were you racing in a one-design fleet or racing on Portsmouth? Usually a one-design fleet is organized and it is easier to get problems within the class or the fleet addressed and resolved.

Man, don't try to back down if you're on starboard!

You might cause some confusion/collisions.

Back when I was racing in Hobie Division 3, there were two 18 skippers that were always guaranteed to protest either each other or any other boat that got in their way. They were the exception and became an ongoing joke for the rest of us.

Sail a clean race and you won't have to worry about protests.

Dude, the last time I suffered damage I was on starboard and didn't back down. Couldn't get any committee to hear me and the skipper of the port boat I hit didn't retire from the race, didn't do penalty turns, nothing. He is an experienced skipper that choose to start on port, fouled the 18 in front of me ( that didn't protest ), and I had no where to go. He even had the nerve to say he thought my 18 mag was a 16 and

I knew I'd be gone before you got here

. I hailed him, my crew hailed him, and those on the committee boat must have had their heads up their butts to see nothing at the start line. He refused to give me his insurance info and the race promoters did nothing to help either. Cost me personally to repair my boat.

Mary,
Was racing one design but on course with other boats at the same time. I was hit by a boat I wasn't competing with. I was on port and he hit my port hull. I never saw him coming and as he never hailed, felt the impact before I knew what was happening.

Actually ISAF racing rules committee started this by making the following mistake.

In the rule where you touch a mark on the course it says you must do a penalty promptly without hindering anybody else.

In the rule where you foil another competitor it only says that you have to do a penalty turn.

By explicetly writing

prompty

(or something to that extend) in one rule but NOT using it in the other rule it gives good ground on which to claim that you can do your penalty turn whenever you want as long as you didn't foul on a mark.

Somebody who was making the racing rules simply forgot to include an important aspect in one of the rules and this is the result.

But it is that way and any good racer can and should make use of that in my opinion. Because if you don't then you only limit yourselfs as some other crew will. Then it is better to all (as in more fair) if we all do it at a time of our chosing.

Wouter

That is true to a point. When you are racing in a really competitive fleet like at worlds etc then playing the rules becomes part of the game just as it is with any top sport.

There will always be crews who will be looking to drive you into a pinch at that level when just their plain speed is not enough. Team Booth is an example for this tactic. And honestly, while I deeply respect a more chevalrous approach to sailing, I also think that at the real top level this is inevitable. By limiting yourself to not playing this game you disadvantage yourself. That is why real top sport is not a nice occupation for alot of times.

But then again we are talking about the real top level events here.

Wouter

That is actually a very good point. If you have rights then claim them. That will make it far easier for the other crew to dip below you or whatever. Also when you show

weakness

in claiming your rights then you'll find that some crews are willing to draw you into a

who blinks first contest

and that can quickly lead to troubles.

Wouter

Wouter,
No disrespect but the kind of aggression you describe has no place at a beer can race. Unfortunately it seems to slip in there anyway. Local fleet regattas where there is no money involved should be friendly non-aggressive events. Yes, competitive but friendly. Pushing the point of who is right at every turn takes the fun out of it, as I see it. If there were a,b & c fleets then I would sail in C fleet and not have to deal with the aggression and skill of A fleet teams. I'm sure A fleet sailors would prefer that as well.

Hi Wouter,

You know that I respect your boat knowledge as I have asked for your opinion more than once but I have to correct you about your rules knowledge since you gave the wrong answer and it would be easy for people to think it was correct since you are so knowledgeable about other things. I encourage you to read rule 44.2 as it explicitly states that all penalties for breaches of rules of Part 2 (When Boats Meet) must be taken promptly.

I also want to make it clear (to all readers) that the fundamental and right-of-way rules are VERY SHORT (22 rules on 10 small pages) and there are so many easily accessible and effective methods and websites to help people to learn the rules that there is simply NO excuse for any racer not to know them well. I will be glad to provide suggested resources if anyone is interested.

Mike,

I looked it all up a while ago, after a massive disagreement at tacticat or something. And this is the way I remember it.

Maybe the rules have changed since then or I just remember it wrong. Anyway, everybody look for himself, I may be wrong on this.

Personally, in real life I make my turns quite soon, it is more sportive in that way.

Wouter

Indeed.

I was talking about truly high level racing, for 90 % of us here that is a totally different league.

Wouter

Mike, a quick link to a good (free) rules site would be nice, maybe Mary and Rick can make it a permanant fixture? That would help us all to become more educated. Thanks.

my personal favorite
rules quiz
don't remember which one of you guys posted this on Catsailor (Rolf?) but I bookmarked it

Timbo:

May not be free, but close to it. BUT this is one of the easiest and best to understand. Seeing a picture is worth a 100 words of trying to explain it.
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Raci...4690321-2609207

Doug Snell
Hobie 17

Stress Free

#007
Mystere 4.3 #149
Sunfish

Perhaps this is a case where there is a difference between the RRS (as published by US Sailing) and the International rules (published by ISAF???). I'm not sure since I've only ever seen the US sailing book.

By the way, the rules are all available online at www.ussailing.org Between that and UK Sails online rules quiz, you should be able to learn them without having to buy one of the explanation books.

That is a great book. Anyone local that wants to borrow it just let me know. The books don’t cover all the situation you can get into and I need to draw one situation I have been in and get all-you-alls opinion on it.

Look at your local sailing club’s calendar and any university near by. A few years ago I was told about the Navy Academy’s Sailing Squadrons classes. When Brad Dellenbaugh was the head guy he was open to a few

outsiders

attending the classes, as long as there was enough room for the middies. If you get the chance, Brad is great at explaining the rules. He uses his Americas cup judging experience in his classes. One of the many things I have taken away from his classes is that you must read the rules that apply and insert the definitions of the italicized words. Don’t' try to apply them from memory when forensically looking at a situation or a protest. If you do, you get individual recollections of the rule and it almost always wont be accurate.

Mast-abeam anyone,

Actually JP, I was taking issue with your generalization that singlehanded sailors tend to overlook the rules more per you earlier post. That's the way I read it.

Bob

This one is my favorite.

-Rob Vaden

http://www.ukhalsey.com/RulesQuiz/index.asp

Chris:

Think you mean David. Is this the guy you are talking about?

http://www.speedandsmarts.com/

Doug

Dave is his brother. I meant Brad see linky:

http://www.americascup.com/en/americascup/news_official/detail.php?idIndex=0&idContent=5172

I can see a beach jury as a triage to decide if the protest needs to be advanced. If the glove don't fit...

Hi Tim,

That is a great idea to have Rick make a permanent link to good rules sites. Several responders have already suggested good ones; the list I am going to offer here repeat some of those and offer even more. Before I put that in I want to reply to Todd's comment. The RRS are the ISAF rules - they are the same around the world. The only differences are prescriptions that individual countries make for their purposes and those are limited. The whole point is to allow racers to learn just one set of rules and race anywhere (such as the Olympics).

The first step for every racer is to get a copy of the rules AND ACTUALLY READ THEM!!! That simple action would immensely reduce the rules confusion expressed on this forum. Whenever you discuss rules with someone, have a copy of the rules in front of you. Look at the websites available, find the one(s) you like, and just read and study a rule a day, or week, even. For a fraction of the time and reading that this forum requires, you could become a rules scholar!! Please note in my insert below what the very first statement in the rules book says and what Fundamental rule three says that you promise to do every time you race! You cannot meet your obligations if you do not know the rules!:

The Racing Rules 2004-2008
“Competitors in sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire”.

1 SAFETY
1.1 HELPING THOSE IN DANGER
A boat or competitor shall give all possible help to any person or vessel in danger.
1.2 LIFE-SAVING EQUIPMENT AND PERSONAL BUOYANCY
A boat shall carry adequate life-saving equipment for all persons on board, including one item ready for immediate use, unless her class rules make some other provision. Each competitor is individually responsible for wearing personal buoyancy adequate for the conditions.
2 FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boat’s series score.
3 ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES
By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each competitor and boat owner agrees
(a) to be governed by the rules; (b) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under the rules; and (c) with respect to such determination, not to resort to any court or other tribunal not provided in the rules.
4 DECISION TO RACE
A boat is solely responsible for deciding whether or not to start or to continue racing.

WEBSITES FOR RRS INFORMATION AND REFERENCE (Last updated in early 2006)

International Sailing Federation website: http://www.sailing.org/
Select “Rules” at the top of the page. This page starts the RRS and at the bottom of this page you can choose “Racing Rules Q&A Service” which lists different questions and answers written from around the world about racing situations causing confusion; especially handy for race officials. You can also choose “Publications” to get the ISAF Cases – authoritative explanations and interpretations of actual racing protest situations and the decisions of the protest and appeals committees.

U.S. Sailing website: http://www.ussailing.org
Select “Racing” at the top of the page and then “Racing Rules” in the menu window.

U.S. Sailing racing course website: http://www.racing.sailingcourse.com/index.html
(Most realistic training simulations of basic rules situations - video style)

UK Sailmakers interactive rules quiz website: (Also available for sale on CD) http://www.ukhalsey.com/RulesQuiz/index.asp
(Probably the best site for rules quizzes)

Selected Dick Rose rules explanation columns from Sailing World magazine
http://www.sailingworld.com/sw_experts.jsp?typeID=402&catID=595

COLREGS website: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/navrules.htm
(These rules apply when racing after sunset and before sunrise)

SailNet Learning to Sail website: http://www.sailnet.com/collections/learningtosail/rules/index.htm
(Interactive place to learn the international and inland rules)

“Uncle Al’s” rules website: http://www.angelfire.com/de2/WIT/Rules_in_Pics_index.html
(Folksy manner - includes updated rules explanations and quizzes using real photos of sailboats racing)

Thanks Mike, for taking the time to round all those up! Now we really have NO EXCUSE to not know the rules. Mary, can we somehow keep these links around so they don't get lost when this thread goes down the list? Or should we put them on that

Test

thread, that just won't die?? <img src=

alt=

/>

Hey Mike,

Thanks for clarifying that. Also good on you for putting all these links together. Good reminder to include the Colregs. I think that is another area where there is alot of confusion. Looks like we all have some light reading before next season!!

Considering who two of the judges were, I have no problem with the

instant justice

in the sand. I cannot think of two more impartial people in the A-Class than Jay and Pease Glaser.

Will be glad to put a permanent link to Rules on the template Page Index.
Sort of like where I have the Link to Handicap Ratings.

Good idea.
Rick

At the recent OCR & NA's, my Tornado was on the recieving end of several obvious fouls (port/starboards, luffing before start, tacking on starboard layline within 2 bl's of top mark), some by top teams in the sport. We also had several teams trying to intimidate us on the start line by yelling that we could not luff them from leeward...this might even be an sportsmanship rule infringement.

Hailing

Protest

, popping out the red flag (required by the 20' rule as T's are just a bit longer) made no difference...no boat made a penalty turn. Though against my better judgement, we did not follow these up with the formal protest procedure. Realistically, we were at the back of the fleet, some offenders in the top ten...we'd not gain much more than a moral victory, while they could lose their shot at the games. Plus, it's a very small group of teams and the bad karma is never good. We did have a couple of guys come up to us afterwards to apologize for the fouls...an unexpected olive-branch.