Let's hear some opinions....

Man, let me put it this way.

If I see such a water surface in a light wind race then I'm running for it. These are wavelets created by the turbulent nature of the windlayer above => ergo there is 5 knots of wind or more above that surface. Winds of less than 5 knots are laminair in nature and will leave the water surface glassy and flat, as in those spots we see on those light wind days ? The start line in the pictures is certainly NOT such a spot.

Wouter

Whether it is a drifter or a honkin' 25kts+, let us sail. Both are entertaining in their unique ways. Ultimately, it is up to the skipper to race.

It's MHO,

Bob Curry

I really was trying to be funny - seriously. You'll see what I mean in a little while.

LOL.. That's funny Jake...

Olli,

Call or email me please.

John Bauldry

Matt,

See that boat at the pin 1670? She finished a very close fourth, and she worked the left both times upwind! The second and third place finishers worked the right.

Got a picture to explain that?

Jake, Sure is impressive to hear how much you think of the event, considering all of the ones you've been to this year! WOW! Way to go Tacie and team! I really enjoyed following the races! Couldn't get enough! Thanks to Brian and his team too! I really enjoyed their coverage! "Windgate" had me LOL! Mary, I am sooo with you on the rules!

I am directing this explanation to all of those who do not understand, or feel that the sailors who filed for redress, are unsportsmanlike.

First of all we are talking about a North American Championhip that should be held to a higher standard than a week end regatta or a club race. Many of the individuals were very seriously trying to become the NAF18 champion. It was their goal for the event. The race committee then ran a race which some felt did not comply with the SI's, they still competed in and finished the race, because they did not know what the outcome of the race or redress would be. They did know that a score would be better then a DNS. You cannot protest the race committee (check your rule books) you can only file for redress which you do after racing and before the deadline. Which is what they did. A protest committee then determined that the race committee was in error and threw out the race. I do not know exactly what happened in the hearing, but it is niave to call names and insinuate they did something wrong when all they did was follow the rules.

This event was held to an extremely high standard in every single aspect.

So every other team that didn't file in the original redress shouldn't be considered because, in your opinion, they weren't seriously trying to become the NAF18 champion!? Come'on Rob - that's just flat out insulting. Talk about a higher standard will ya.

Hey Jake: and anyone else that sailed in the thrown out race.
I have a couple of questions (although afraid to ask).
When you were out on the water waiting for your class flag:
What did you think of the wind conditions at that time?
When the flag went up: Did you really feel as though there was enough wind to have a fair race? I know you stated that the wind was good during the race. I would like to hear some honest answers. My feeling, have been in that spot many times, is that the majority of the sailors would not have wanted to start a race. Just wondering.
Attachment: More than 5 knots

Relax Jake...

There is no question about the integrity of the event, organizers or the RC. This debate is a rules issue.

It is really no different from a Port Starboard protest that goes to the Jury. There can be different opinions, but the final say is the jury's decision. Anyone who has ever protested on a port starboard situation knows that it is often an interpetation of the rules and how you can express the facts (as you saw them) to the jury. I have lost what I saw as a clear cut situation because of a lack of proof on my side. Yeah, it sucks, but that is how the game goes. You learn to back yourself up with data and witnesses.

Back to the thread...

My opinion is for minimum and maximum wind speeds for major events. Actually maximums for any event. Take the Tiger Worlds. There were races run in conditions that were over the top. Usually RC's do not have enough chase boats to handle multiple problems at one time and are not as prepared for that as they should be, so a maximum is good for them as well.

Jake,
I was referring to the sailing conditions and the racing when I said the should be held to a higher standard. Sailing in 5 knots or less is very questionable. There is a book by Julian or Frank Bethwaite called High Speed Sailing which explains the reasons, I would quote it but I loaned the book to my brother, why winds under 5 knots are very inconsistent and unstable. It explains why it is a crap shoot under 5 knots but not when the winds are above 5 knots. I do not think a North Americans should be sailed in a crap shoot. The picture posted of the start with glass near the pin and dark water near the committe boat is indicative of winds less than 5 knots.

I was directing this post towards those who felt the protest was unsportsmanlike. Many of their comments make it sound like nothing was at stake, when in reality a championship was. I did not mean to say that everyone wasn't trying to win, but that some people may take winning more seriously than others, and this is not a bad thing. Seocndly, I was trying to get the point across that all the people who filed for redress did was follow the rules. And unfortunetly the rules make everything work from an after the fact perspective. You cannot file for redress until after the racing is over and the results are relatively known. This casts a shadow over the preceedings. I did not mean to be offensive and appologize if I was.

Ok...sorry I brought it up again.

Nothing I'm going to say here will surprise anyone I'm sure. As the class flag came up, I never really questioned whether or not we had enough breeze to race. I do remember hoping that it would stay filled in or get stronger because I don't like sailing amongst potholes anymore than anyone else. Looking up the course David and I saw that the wind was filled in evenly but with stripes inbetween (streaky) up the course indicating there were some pretty consistant shifts meaning that we need to wait a few seconds before tacking when we felt one (so we don't tack right on the edge of it and right back out of it again). As I'm sure most everyone did, we had our mind set to treat our momentum carefully and our placement on the course out of dirty air at a premium.

I'm sure it would be easy to fool myself into thinking there was enough breeze but I've been through it in my mind again and again and I certainly feel like there was. Not all of the 22 teams that filed the second redress did well in that race but all of them felt that it was a fair race and were dissapointed that it was thrown out. I've been asked if I would feel the same way had I placed in last place in the race and I can honestly say that I would. My dissapointment that the race was tossed might have been slightly lessened but I would not have participated in the original file for redress nor would I have supported the notion that it was "unfair" regardless.

I was in 5th place with a group of 4 boats about 20 feet in front of me and three boats about 10 feet behind as we all made the only rounding of C mark. The three boats behind me went way left while we went right with the boats in front of us. After sailing about half the way back to A feeling that we weren't going to outrun the boats in front of us we started to work back to the left to try and defend our position. We barely won those crossings and lost no distance on the pack in front of us. The breeze was quite steady all over the course (unless you got trapped in the shadow of other boats). I felt it was a fair race ... that really is my honest answer. I've done a lot of lake racing where the light air racing was NOT fair and where, in my opinion, luck had more to do with the outcome (but strangely Nigel Pitt still always comes out in front). This wasn't one of those....except for the Nigel part.

Lastly, and I promise it will be the last time I bring it up, the SI rule 11.5 is really quite clear in context and intent that there should be 5knots or better at all marks of the course at the start as determined by the Race Committee and that somehow this got over complicated and twisted into making the RC "prove" that he had 5 knots. That's not what it says. I honestly feel that there was enough wind, a fair race took place, and that even if there wasn't and it didn't, we had no room to toss it based on SI 11.5.

"somehow this got over complicated and twisted into making the RC "prove" that he had 5 knots"

This is not at all over-complicated Jake.

It is quite reasonable to expect the RC to take a wind reading before a start (with a knot meter). It is also good practice to take many wind readings before starts and to record them. They didn't and that made the difference in the hearing. Pretty simple.

Thanks Jake
Next question that I'm afraid to ask:
You must have done the results with that race.
Did it change the top 15 in any way?
I guess my opinion is that they should not have started the race,but once they did it should have counted.
Less than 5 knots

I'll try not to rant anymore!

I don't know what affect it would have had on the results. The results of that race were never posted. I suspect that it would have had little affect on the top 5 and might have shaken up 6 through 12 a little but that is only a faint guess.

Matt, I won't disagree with you there. This whole thing would have gone away with periodic wind readings near and at the start of the race and would be prudent to do so (you can probably count on it from Mark in the future!). However, I still don't see anywhere that he was required to take digital readings at any interval in the rules and that his not doing so would mean the race was invalid.

A big question is who were the judges on the Jury for this event?

I wasn't there but....
I've been listening patiently to both sides of this discussion as someone who one day hopes to race with and against you all and thereby teach my son about competing and sportsmanship. First I want to say I completely agree with Mary's earlier comments.
I think generally we have placed so much emphasis on the outcomes of these competitions that the letter of the rules rather than the spirit of the rules is what becomes important. I watched with my son the other day a Ryder Cup match from earlier days when Jack Nicholas picked up the coin of a competitor thereby conceding his 4 or 5 foot putt and halving the entire competition. Some of those individuals who are on one side of our current discussion I'm sad to say would have said Nicholas was an idiot because he was completely within his righta and playing by the letter of the rules to make that other player make his 4 or 5 foot putt. I'd like to think (and I am overjoyed with the same conclusion my son came to) that perhaps that situation embodies what this and all competition is about. Winning yes, absolutely, but not at all costs. If you lose, don't go running to the rulebook to see where you've been wronged. Accept that all competitors had the same conditions and congratulate the winners. Accept that Mark did his best to ensure a fair race and don't ask him to "prove it". Is it any wonder why it is getting harder and harder to find volunteers for anything these days. With all the crap that comes with the job, up to and including questioning of integrity, pretty soon people we will ruin this for everyone but the lawyers.....
I hate the direction this thread took after the well-deserved congratulations of all those who did such an admirable job putting it all together.

End of pollyanna rant.

Air, air, are we on the air! Live in 3....2....1..... Phfsht, glug glug glug glug Ahhhhhhhh! Thanks Jake..... . Drink more Kalik! Bob-A-Bouy.

I'm not sure there is one right answer or one perfect standard for every event. Certainly at nationals-level events the sailors are able to handle a wider range of conditions (wind and wave) and will tollerate fewer mistakes from the RC before crying foul. However, at local events with A, B and C class sailors all toeing the line together, it's often as much about about the experience and fun of racing as scoring a high placing. In these "local" events, to pull the plug on a race because the wind dips below 5 knots seems a little too strict for the spirit of the day. At a national-level event, by all means, lower wind limits are worthwhile for maintaining a fair play, as are upper limits. I think it comes down to the spirit of the event and having the judgement to handle the situation fairly.

That quote came from a post by Jake.

Now, I don't pretend to know a lot about rules, but I do know a lot about the meaning of words. If the sailing instruction says "should" rather than "shall," it is not a rule -- it is merely a suggestion. And that makes the protest committee's decision even more inexplicable.

This is a right receipy for endless protests. The light weather specialists will always protest the RC for starting in too much wind and the heavy weather addicts will protest the RC for starting in too little wind.

Battery of the DIGITAL windspeed meter dead ? Ohhh shucks, lets cancel all the races for the day for there will be no point in starting anyway. Last minute adjustment of the start-line ? Forget about mate, if we do we will have to do a 15 min measuring session at all bouys again or risk the race being thrown out.

And yes I have experience in this, actually when being part of the RC at a past Hobie nationals. Luckily the RC head was an old racer himself and he knew full well what "top crews" are up to. And he treated both the rule makers and the sailors accordingly. He wouldn't have no "impossible" rules in the NOR and when the sailors started bitching he simply replied :"we're racing and you decide whether you want to be part of it"

Turns out that afterwards many and many sailors came up to him and thanked him for excellent leadership and excellent courses all weekend. Even the guys that not long before tried everything to get an advantage expressed that it was one of the best managed events in years.

In the end of the day you'll have to be prepared to educate a few "rock stars" that sailing is a sport that requires a "can do mentallity" and that will always contain some amount of "luck and bad luck". Otherwise take up playing chess.

I say focus on hiring a well experience RC and have them decide what is suitable or not. Appears that the US F18 nationals did just that as Mark apparently made a good call that day. Sadly some rule maker(or enforcer) thought that he had a better overview of the situation than the guys actually setting the course and sampling the conditions. Although doing so with his eyes and skin rather than some digital gadget.

I know a professional RC guy that uses a gps unit to set out a course and his courses are always crooked. Some (digital)gadget is never a substitute for skill and experience.

Wouter

Don't consider that verbatum - I need to get the exact wording from the SI and will do so tonight. Unless somebody has it with them now. Ooo wait. I found them online. My previous wording was admitedly a little soft.

Back to Tom's original thread question.., should there be limits.
As you can see this whole mess was because there were limits. Had there not been, no redress, no bad decisions.

Universally, we all know that the more legislation, the less freedoms. Please review my previous post on the debacle at the Tornado Nationals. Had they not legislated all those rules, I would have abandoned the race.

They legislated and as RC I had to comply. Result? A screwed up race. Had there not been that legislation, the race would have been abandoned.

Placing rules is not the answer to a fair major event.., rather getting a competent PRO to make good decisions.

If every bad decision made by a PRO in a major event needed legislation, where would be now?
Remember?
1) TheMightyHobie18 Nationals in big seas and wind, the RC put the leeward mark right in the surf -- took out most of the fleet.
2) Same Nationals where it was a Windward/Leeward course. Most of the fleet went around the wrong mark that the RC had negligently left in the water, ten sailed the proper course. Most were given a penatly of 11 points (a keeper in a Nationals) instead of the number of starters plus one (or around 60 points) that really screwed up the results. It turned out to be a penalty to the ones that did it correctly.
3) Hobie 20 Nationals in the Florida Panhandle that was started in big winds and seas and took out half the fleet (RC said they were not good sailors, although many were past champions)

When there are problems, legislation is NOT the answer. Common sense is the answer -- just get a common sense, experienced PRO.

Although, that may be more difficult in the future. For example, I really have no desire to work with the Tornadoes again, and Mark may not want to work with the F18s again.
Rick

OK one more piece of info. The sailing instructions are there to protect the sailors and ensure a fair event. The term "as determined by the race committee" was added to the standard sailing instructions a few years back. As recent as 2000 it was not there. I believe it was added because we have had these exact protests in the past. I truly believe it was added so that the race committee did have to prove they had wind about the same time it became easy to have hand held digital devices on all mark boats. My opionion is it is in there to ensure RC's are taking wind readings. Maybe someone that knows something about the exact time the change was made and the intent of the change can chime in. This can be a learning experience, but it certainly is not a new argument. The 99 and 03 H16 nationals had protests against the RC with regard to wind. One race was thrown out, One was allowed.

It doesn't say how it has to be determined, as discussed in previous posts.

can't let this thread end with the jibberish in the above post, and i feel like makin butter, hahahahahaha

most of the posts in this thread that contain gibberish come from posters with very little big event experience, or for that matter much expereince at all. IMHO

The point of starting the thread was to get opinions on minimum wind conditions, NOT to hash/bash or rehash any paticular event or situation.

Anyway this thread is getting old. There are other things to discuss/argue.......What's next

You caught me on your first two points. You know the little man has opinions too.

Let's argue about how there should be a 2 mile b mark leg at all F18 championships!!!!

You don't have to have much experience to recognize Court-Room Sailing at its finest.