Ok, I was going to let the dying horse come to pass, but now I just have to kick it some more since someone brought back into my "active threads" list.
So I'd like you to point out to me where it says in the SI's specifically that the RC has to take wind readings AND record them. I can't see how the PRO can be held to a standard that isn't put into the written rules.
Nobody has even bothered to explain to me why the protesting body wasn't asked to provide proof that there wasn't the minimum wind speed. I mean, if you're going to claim that there wasn't 5 knots, then bring proof! If the judge panel used at least two brain cells collectively, they'd realize that while the PRO doesn't really care either way that the race counts, the protesting teams had much to lose if the race stood, and therefore should be the ones to provide the indisputable evidence. Simple bias.
Next, this bit of garbage:
I feel it was unsportsmanlike. Just because you want to win more than the other guy doesn't mean you acheive it by any means possible. I know its become the de-facto modus operandi of competitive sailing to run to the room when you lose, but I thought beachcat sailors were a cut above that. I guess I'm mistaken. This thread serves will serve to remind me of this fact in the future.
To me, there is more than just a championship at stake here. Witnessing the actions of the teams and the committee only serves to vindicate my loathe for those who compete through litigation.
As for the protesting teams following the rules, I guess I missed this one:
Damn, I need to get the more up-to-date copy of the rulebook.
Maugan, There is quite a bit of emotion involved here... and not a ton of logic.
I am quite sure that SI was written with the expectation that an RC would be taking wind readings (This was backed up by the Jury's findings). "As determined"? Who the heck would write that without the expectation that it would be a valid reading, not just a guess. Every RC has knot meters. Every major event I have been to recently has had minimum wind requirements and lots of wind readings were taken and recorded.
Quit stretching this out of proportion. The rule was in the SI and the RC didn't follow it or back it up. Shame on them.
I am quite sure that SI was written with the expectation that an RC would be taking wind readings (This was backed up by the Jury's findings). "As determined"? Who the heck would write that without the expectation that it would be a valid reading, not just a guess. Every RC has knot meters. Every major event I have been to recently has had minimum wind requirements and lots of wind readings were taken and recorded.
Quit stretching this out of proportion. The rule was in the SI and the RC didn't follow it or back it up. Shame on them.
Shame on you Matt, for having the audacity to disgrace a group of volunteers (who like the competitors), took over a week off from work – some without pay, sweated it out on the water, worked damn hard from 8AM to the end of racing and additional hour after racing ended, all for the sailors and the event organizers – no glory, no fringe benefits, no trophies – they expected nothing in return. and they certainly did not expect to be looked down on like they have.
And here you, and others, who were not even at the event, want to sit back and bash the RC? Hypothetically speaking – let’s say the RC was wrong. Did they do this to intentionally hurt someone? Did they behave in a malicious manner? Did anyone get hurt?
Shame on them?
I am sitting here right now looking at the official reports of all the protests heard.
I'm satisified that the sailors are not at fault, nor is the RC.
Tracie
Excuse me?
Where am I bashing the RC? or the organizers? I am clearly stateing the facts for those that seem unable to grasp that it is a basic rules question. Nothing more and nothing less. There is no intention on my part to offend anyone here. This was a simple opinions thread right? Or is it way more to you guys? Not me.
Simple rules issue it may be, but the way they were used here just feel slimey and lawerish. And now that something like this has been done once..... I'm not sure I would want to be on eigther a jury or a race committee for this type of event as a volunteer if this sorta thing gets to be the norm. I think thats part of why people aren't letting this die, its obviously having a lingering effect, even if its just our little community here.
I am a bit taken back by the emotions still spilling forth on this issue. I honestly don't think there were bad feelings against the RC or any volunteers at the regatta. That is not how these things would be normally be perceived. There are always some heated people during protests, but that passes quickly.
In all reality, nothing would have changed for the regatta results. There was much more racing in light air for the rest of the regatta. It might be a little different if it was all hanging on just one race.
I guess it just boils down to being the controversy of the day.
When is anything *ever* simple on this forum?
I apologize for picking on you, but you’re "shaming" of the RC struck a nerve with me. (Obviously)
It is more to me because all the people on the RC happen to be my friends. They worked hard and served with the best intensions. Nothing about their efforts should be considered shameful.
I am really disturbed when I hear or read negative comments towards people who volunteer their time towards our sport.
Tracie
Excuse me? How the hell do you know that? That is straight up wrong. Did you run the numbers, and if that race would have counted do you think all things would have transpired exactly the way they did throughout the rest of the regatta? Is that your thesis "It doesn't matter anyway"? That race sure did matter. Fact is, that race was HUGE in the standings at the time, and the order could have come out much differently in the end.
Matt, Perhaps I missed something, but I was under the impression there were wind speeds taken before the race, and that the Pro and RC were in compliance with the rules. If they failed to record/log them I can see how someone with a motive might want to get the race thrown out. I can also see that people might respect the positions of said Pro and RC, and let their judgement stand. I don't see it as simply following the rules, and there is obviously some gray in the interpretations of the rules! While I don't know squat about racing, I have heard the protests, and arguements around the bar after regattas. Many come from the same people time and again. This sort of protest still looks bad from where I sit. You say the readings weren't taken, and weren't recorded. I heard that readings were taken before the race, and that they had the required 5. As I read the rules, that fulfills the requirement. Am I wrong?
Where am I bashing the RC? or the organizers?
....
That just rings of "they did a great job and they should be applauded for their efforts." I guess we have a different way of telling people that we appreciate their work here in the South.
So now we're into subjective rules interpretation.
I'm sorry, but you're not the one that gets it. You're the one that doesn't see the problem with winning through litigation. I don't give two craps if the racers WERE within the letter of the rules (which I'm still not convinced that they are), pulling something underhanded like this just makes me ill, and its pretty clear to me that I'm not the only one that has a problem with it.
There is a reason I am so emotional about this. It gets under my skin to see people act like this. The fact that you and others dont see it as any big deal makes me even more mad.
I know that this whole ordeal finalized which boat I'm going to eventually purchase.
A lot of light air sailors did well in that race, and were denyed their proper place earned in a properly run light air race. Was my best race of the week too, that's what I frequently sail in. Maybe I should have called foul because the heavy air was not fair to me since that's not what I usually get to sail in.
Who threw out the race when our boat capsized in the heavy squall? Seems the same to me . . .
What idiot ever protests the RC anyway? Guess they have no damn clue how hard RC's across the country work to put on fair races for us.
Damn Shame was the Protest Committee Judges listened to these So-Called Experts who claimed there was not 5kts of wind, The hotshots didn't like their poor performance and whined, and they got their way. Even after we found a wind source which recorded and displayed 6-11 knots of breeze during the race, the Protest Committee Judges were too stubborn to change their minds and publicly admit they were wrong in the first place. Glad those "officials" don't live in our area, I'd have a hard time selling a regatta.
That "judgement" was a Travesty, a blow to honest well meaning RC's everywhere.
If you can't trust the Judges, why do we bother with any rules?
Seems to me they've set a bad precedent, I will value this as a guideline to fairness when I sit on protest commitee.
Lesson learned on how NOT to make judgements.
This judgement was WRONG.
I am quite sure that SI was written with the expectation that an RC would be taking wind readings (This was backed up by the Jury's findings). "As determined"? Who the heck would write that without the expectation that it would be a valid reading, not just a guess. Every RC has knot meters. Every major event I have been to recently has had minimum wind requirements and lots of wind readings were taken and recorded.
Quit stretching this out of proportion. The rule was in the SI and the RC didn't follow it or back it up. Shame on them.
MATT:
YOU WERE"T THERE EITHER.
(Jack Young from PERFORMANCE CATAMARANS was. Nice Fella, great role model)
[color] SHAME ON YOU FOR TRYING TO JUSTIFY THE WHINERS!
[color]
MY SLOW butt LAKE SAILER TIGER SAILS WERE BLOCKING ALL THE WIND FROM YOUR FACTORY TEAM THAT I was right next to(upwind, that is). They just couldn't feel the wind at 5 knots with 1/2 the fleet giving them Dirty Air. It sucked so bad in that start line we should have been sailing backwards. As soon as we tacked away from the fleet the air was fine and it was a nice race.
If you were't there then you don't really know what you're talking about.
Cary
Hobie Tiger
Three Hobies in the Yard, Time for a change
AnyBody Got a NACRA to trade?????
It is more ridiculous that the jury heard the protest.
And it is most ridiculous that the jury decided against the race committee.
And it is all because of that stupid rule. Just let the race committee make the decisions about when there is enough wind to start a race (or too much wind to start a race).
Was there also a rule that you can't start a race in over 25 knots? If so and if some people didn't do well in that much wind, could they protest after the race and get it thrown out if the race committee could not prove the wind was under 25 knots?
This whole thread is embarrassing for the sport of sailboat racing. And the jury decision was insulting to the PRO for this particular regatta.
After all the RulesyTechnoBABBLISHCrap is over, MARY sez it best.
It was an embarassment.
Re: "Any advantage? Hard to tell, but its a cutting edge class, exactly where this kind of sailing should be, advancing the technology for all of us."
I can't resist. F-18 is a great concept and it's obviously a great class with good racing but its not cutting edge and it's not advancing the technology for all of us. The boats are heavy and all of the spinnaker launch systems I have seen are a couple of generations behind what the Tornado and F-18HT folks are now doing. The biggest thing is the weight. A 250 lb Tiger would be a dream machine! Hobie, the world is waiting for you to catch up and go hi-tech. It's time.
Just a comment from one of those snobby elitist A-boaters.
Lightweight (and lovin it).
Sorry Bob, but I could not resist comment. While the A Cats were sitting on the beach this Tuesday in the "Gorge", the old design Hobie 17's would have put in a full day of racing. In 1990 for the Single Handled Nationals for Hobie 14 and Hobie 17's we were upsteam at Hood River in the real "Gorge" enjoying a full week of racing in 25 to 45 mph conditions. No races canceled due to conditions. Can't remember if you were there, but it was a week to remember.
Caleb Tarleton H-17 6185
Tom Tarleton H-17, 144
Sorry, I can't resist any longer..
Should it be "whining", or "whinning" 
I can't see why the RC should keep records of the wind strength, it must be up to the protesters to proove that it was below 5 knots?
After reading all this, I must admit that I am beginning to have second toughts about having a minimum windstrength in the SI or class rules. Creates way to much noise instead of sailing activites!
This is a dangerous escape route to take, I think
Either the results of that race didn't change much and so it can both be assumed that it was equally fair to all and the protesters just wasted everybodies time and spoiled all their enjoyment of the event for no good reason. I would call that unsportsmanlike.
OR the result did make a significant difference with the light air crews doing really well and a certain portion of the fleet were denied of their hard earned results via a protest. Note that not the RC threw the race which they would have done if THEY had felt that the race was unfair.
Wouter
I don't get it. What was wrong with the simple rule of a time limit for a race? Or a shorten course flag. Why do we have to find ways of complicating things that should be simple.
Big event? Here in Tampa Flt. 42 (R.I.P) would have 230+ boats show up for a Mid Winters East. I'm sure some of you remember those days. I had the pleasure of co-chairing one year. We had a year where we got one race in for the weekend. The wind never exceeded 5 knts. Do you tell SAILORS that came from all over the country they can't sail because though there is enough wind to move the boats we can't sail because only at the magic threshold of "5" can we ensure the race will be fair. You see with "5" we can ensure that the wind will be consistent all around the course, with "5" we can ensure the wind won't shift 180',With "5"....... This is the kind of crap that drives two thirds of the people out of the class leaving that one third that is "more serious" about winning. ENJOY!
Hats off to all that helped with the race. Make sure you people who are "more serious" show them some love because it's sad to have people that are "more serious" when no one cares.
I'll 2nd that one.
Caleb/Tom,
Even the best Olympic sailors and world champs I know could not keep any catamaran upright in 45 knots of wind so I'm not sure I trust that statement that you were "racing" in those conditions. I've been on the water sailing an A-boat with the some of the best sailors in the world in 25-30 knots of wind. It wasn't racing, it was more survival. We are typically humble enough to get ourselves off the water in those conditions.
I've raced with and against such sailors as Randy Smyth, Carlton Tucker, Nigel Pitt, Alex Shafer, WF Oliver, Johnny Lovell, Charlie Ogeltree, Pete Melvin, Ben Hall, and others. Every one of them to a man would say go to the beach if the conditions on the water exceeded 25 knots.
Okay everyone, time for me to chime in.
First of all I want to say thank you to all of you for you all have both diverse and passionate opinions about this topic of wind speed limits. I also want to say thanks for all the support and for all the criticism, I will use both to the benefit of acquiring wisdom. We all have alot of knowledge but I want to acquire wisdom which is to know what to do with the knowledge.
I have no excuses for anything that transpired, the race was run, the request for redress was filed and a decision was issued. My only regret is that I did not say that I determined the wind was 5 knots at the start. I was questioned repeatedly by 6 sailors and 3 jury members and every question regarding wind speed revolved around my last reading, whether it was done electronically, etc. When I answered the question did I know the wind speed at the start I answered the question did you know what the wind meter read at the start and I did not. Based on the movement of the boats, their ability to recover from a general recall and restart, the wind on my face, etc there was five knots of wind at the start. As for recording the wind speeds I guess the question is recorded where and how. I always record the windspeed at the start on the order of finish forms and usually on an electronic recording instrument. I did not have one on my electronic recorder this time (probably busy sighting down the line for a clean start) but I will bet dollars to donuts the windspeed recorded on the order of finish forms the jury used for placement state 5 knots. Strange that was never used in the room.
No excuses, just the facts.
Now, I wrote the SIs and never even considered the fact that this would come to pass. My interpretation of the "as determined" clause was to allow for dynamics. What I mean by that is 5 knots is not always 5 knots. I could have 5 knots of steady breeze but have a 1 knot current. Do you all want me to start a race? What is the effective wind speed you feel as a racing yacht?
Let's talk a bit about the request for redress. In the room I actually heard some of the sailors using all their past experiences in other events that gave them a superior ability to determine wind speed from a moving vessel over that of a very well-seasoned sailor/PRO on a stationary platform. I was really taken aback that they had the nerve to discuss qualifications with me. I think most of you know some of my sailing experiences, my accomplishments and where around the globe they occured. Some of you have enjoyed those times with me. As for RC experience I do not think any one of the competitors in the room can come close to mine. There was actually one sailor, a guy from Canada, don't remember his name, that said he is constantly checking windspeeds as he is an avid windsurfer and does it all the time so he is somewhat of an expert at it. He seemed to sail by my boat almost every race so I asked him everytime I noticed him what the windspeed was and not once was he even close, always low. I guess a 1 knot drift will adversely affect your ability to determine wind speed from a floating platform.
Just a note on the future.
Rick, I will be honored to PRO any F18 event they would have me at as I know it is not an F18 issue. All but one of these sailors that filed the request for redress have either sailed under my management or against me on the water in the Hobie 16 and Hobie 20 classes.
Wind speed limits. If I ever put a minimum wind speed rule in my future SIs it will be stated with an or before the word as and instead of determined it will say at the discretion of. Something like: No race will be started in wind less than 5 knots at every mark on the course or at the discretion of the race committee. Remember, if I start a race and if becomes apparent it is not competitive I can abandon it, but that is my call not the sailors call.
Oh, by the way, did I mention I eliminated the rule via an amendment asap after the ruling and that on Thursday, with the wind conditions looking very much like the day before, the entire fleet joined me and my staff on the water to either sit and wait with me or race. Race we did. Two races, lunch, shift course, one race, wait, shift course, two more races, on the beach 1815.
All said and done, it was a GREAT event, I had a wonderful time, and all this will only make me a better PRO for all of you in the future.
God Bless,
Mark
Mark,
very well said.
You did an excellent job, and the people who protested you, yes they protested the RC, should be ashamed(a word taken from Matt Miller, (whoever the fu*K he is, smart butt commentor who wasnt there, nor is here anywhere other than a computer that I can find).
Ive bit my tongue thru this whole debate save my first comment, but for those "competitors"(a loosely termed adjective) that protested a race committee(can you believe that sh%t?) and now the couch sailors (who in their own minds know everything) to sit and bash Mark and the RC, Ive had enough. US Sailing is now going to use this example for future judges as "what not to do". Maybe the protesting boats can use this as what not to do also. I certainly lost a lot of respect for the people I thought were great sailors, and maybe they are great sailors, but sporting, they are not.
David Mosley
I was there, if you were not, then keep your monday morning comments to your self.
Mark, You are both humble and wise. I am glad you are still willing to be a Pro! From everything I've heard and read, you have good reason to be very proud of your role in such a great event! Thank you for your service! From a cat sailing enthusiast, and fan of the sport, Brian McCarter
Bob,I agree that we were racing in extreme conditions, and it was survial. However, the Hobie 17 can race in these high wind conditions, which included four foot waves. In case you doubt this report, you might talk with some of the other racers, in order of finish: Hobie Alter Jr, Alan Equsa, Jeff Alter, Wayne Mooneyham, Wick Smith, Steve Leo, Bob Seaman, Randy Hatfield, etc thru the 50 H-17 sailors. Ken Marshack, now an A cat sailor was 13th. Paul Ulibarri was our event coordinator, Doug Skidmore was H-17 PRO, and Wayne Schaeffer was the H-14 PRO. We had 12 of the sailors from this event at the Hobie 17 Nationals in Monterey last year. Some of us still sailing the same boat. The only problem with the Hobie 17 is that they do not wear out. Your can buy a new one for about half the price of an A cat, or a used one in racing condition for less than $3,000. Do not get me wrong, the A cat is a beautiful and exciting class, but many of us can just not afford to own and maintain an A cat. Our Hobie 17 fleet is also growing, with new people of all ages. The A class in the Northwest has done an excellent job in building their fleet, and we wish them well. BTW, the following link is to a picture of Tom on his H-17 in the Gorge during the Nationals in 1990. http:/
Caleb and Tom Tarleton
Mark: In an effort to gain a little wisdom myself,I went back and looked at some old SI's. The 94-96 IHCA has no mention of wind readings. The April 97 IHCA 8.7 has minimum 5 knots. the most recent ones I've seen added the "as determined by the RC. The SI's from the 2002 MEGA, wich you were part of, added "The decision by the race committee to start or not start a race is not subject to redress". That might be helpful in the future. It's a rule that either needs to be taken out all together and allow the RC to use his/her judgement or very clearly define what the PRO must do. Just my thoughts. Hope to see you in Wildwood. Are you the PRO?
Pat,
I like that "not subject to redress." I should have gone deeper into my archives when I wrote these SIs.
My family and I will probably only be in Wildwood on Saturday. Just too expensive for me right now. No, I am not the PRO - I believe John Shaw is, same as last year.
Mark
MARK
You Ran a great event. In Fact, This was one of the best events I've had the privilege of competing in.
KUDOS to you and to Tracie VanHouten for such an excellent event.
We were all very proud of you, You did a GREAT job, it is a shame all this Monday Morning Armchair quarterbacking is the impression that the Racing Public will remember from such a fine event and well run Race.
Thanks again for everything you did, you have the great appreciation of all the rest of us who attended.
Cary Palmer
Commodore Seacats Fleet 141
I just started racing a few years ago. I have only done a couple local buoy races and a lot of distance races all over Florida. I have considered racing more buoy races for the broadened experience. After reading all of this, I don't think I will be doing any buoy races that I have to transport my boat to.
For me, sailing is about dealing with a wide variety of situations. Distance racing is great. You have a start line and a finish line. Unless some MAJOR weather comes in at the start, the race is started and continues unless all participants decide to quit.
I have been in races that had both extremes in wind conditions. This is part of the fun/draw. Survival sailing is as much an art/skill as light wind sailing. I did the Hogsbreath 100 a few years back when only 9 out of 19 boats finished. The whole first day of the race was done in 30-50+ mph winds. Looking back on it, it was one of the most fun races I did. I also raced in the Mug Cup race this year where only 3 out of 280 boats finished in the allotted time. I did not finish in time but I completed the course. I probably learned more that day about racing than I had in all my previous races despite my technical dnf. A few people bitched but no protests. I have a feeling that the rules will be modified for next year to prevent this but we all knew what the rules were going in.
One of the statements that most surprises me is that if the wind does a 180 shift, you would discontinue the race. This makes absolutely no sense to me. It goes against all I have learned about sailing. It is good I find out about this now, instead of on course.
To me, it just seems that there is entirely too much whining and BS in buoy racing. I am glad I followed this thread so closely. It made me realize that I need to continue my distance racing schedule except for a few buoy races that are done at my local sailing club.
Note: If an official cannot make a call on something as basic as to determine if he should start a race or not, you might as well have a wind meter starting the race and eliminate the personnel. The protesters were unsportsmanlike (Not displaying the qualities or behavior befitting a good sport)which has nothing to do with the rules.
I am most disturbed by the fact that all the people who filed for redress are labeled as whiners and unsportsmanlike. We participate in a sport that is self-policing. There are no officials telling us what is legal or illegal. The only recourse we have is to file a protest against another boat or file for redress if we feel that an action of another body caused us harm and the actions did not follow the rules. Also, the argument that everyone uses about the same individuals wouldn't have filed for redress if they had done better is rediculous. Of course they wouldn't. The rules state that you are only allowed to file for redress if "... (a boat's score)has been made significantly worse by..." If the individuals did well they would have no grounds for redress. I think if you were to step back from this incdent and look at the individuals and their history both on the water and off you find that they rarely go to the protest room and that they must have felt pretty strongly about this incident to file their redress.
Hey Mark, thanks for the insight and having the cojones (sp?) to jump in to this fray. We'll see you this weekend.
I now agree with Tom.., let's have limitations.
Actually, 5 knots of wind is not much fun. Sailing in around 10 is just about perfect. No, make that 11 knots.
And then when it gets to be 15 knots, it starts getting a bit on the scary side.
In order to insure that no one gets scared.., or even capsizes, we should not start races in winds of 15 knots or more. No, make that 14 knots.
So, the RC shall not start races in winds less than 11 knots.., and shall not start races in winds over 14 knots.
But wait.., we cannot start a race in rain, lightning, or other inclement climatic situations.
Ergo, no race shall be started if there is a cloud on the horizon -- you never know when it will bulk up and throw lightning at you.., and rain.., and hail.., and squall lines.
And that phenomenon usually happens when there is a front in the area.
Therefore, no races shall be started if there is any kind of front within 200 miles.
Aw! But wait a minute. What about the sun. In order to keep sailors from getting sun damage to their skin and eyes and consequently die of cancer, we must not start any races when there is sunshine.
Therefore, no race shall be started if it is sunny.
There, that ought to cover the situation so everyone has a fair race. <img src=
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I believe this is an argument form called
ridiculus ad absurdem.
Rick