Nacra 52 and Fear Factor

Dick,

It sounds like your asking about what wind speed are you more likely to capsize. Previously I've been one of the more capsize prone skippers prior to now simply because I always pushed hard and felt that the easiest way to learn where the limit is, is to exceed it...frequently. I was never concerned about it until a few recent incedents have made me back away from the limit a little and now we're constantly one of the more stable boats on the course (all the sudden we're placing better in the results too...geee...).

Righting the boat, especially if you are trying to do so quickly, can be pretty exhausting but the most tiring part is after the technically difficult one. It becomes physical just as the boat comes upright when you grab for the dolphin striker to keep the boat from rolling back over the other way and then when you try to a) keep the boat from sailing away from you and b) get onboard as quickly as possible to stop the jib from luffing and tearing itself apart. I don't think you can ever depend on not capsizing - freak gusts or rigging or gear failure can hit you at any time and we should all be prepared for it. Barring these kind of failures, I begin to feel a little less in control and a little more at the mercy of the wind when the wind speed gets to about 18 knots. My fun level starts going down from there to where 22 knots is simply not enjoyable and is a struggle to stay upright and keep the loads low on the rigging (like mainsail luffing and mast hoola'ing).

Pretty much it did - my guess was that for my weight and age that I need to either have a crew for extra hands or keep it on the shore if the winds are much over 15 and higher. This past weekend I would have had to single hand in our regatta with winds starting at 15 and running into the 20's with 2 to 3 foot white caps. I opted to watch rather than single hand. I am also presuming that IF I did opt to go out and did some dumping of the main and putting the traveler down like in a monohull that would help in keeping it upright, just like a monohull. I'll stick with your ideas on the wind speeds and I'd already determined that 25 mph means watch the younger guys! LOL! Was good to see you are still helping folks out when I checked back in to the site yesterday.

Dick

Yeah - putting the traveler down and dumping the main are certainly prescribed upwind. In fact, upwind is not really the problem. It's when you are downwind, or transfering frmo upwind to downwind 'though the circle of death' that you become vulnerable. You can only do so much to prevent capsize in nuclear conditions whilst sailing downwind.

I don't understand this fear-of-capsize thing. If you don't want to capsize, it is actually pretty easy not to. When you are racing and pushing the envelope, that's a different story. Maybe capsizing is a guy thing. Personally, as a woman, I try to avoid it.

Pitchpoling is Fun! Can't wait until I get to do it again (seriously)

The fear of capsizing thing comes more so when the cardiologist tells you that you need to limit your physical stress to walking and not running and all that kind of junk. As a life long type A it is hard to give it all up totally, so I acquiess to his demands by making sure I can mostly avoid the trying to right the beast situation. I love speed and all that stuff, I just have to accept that there might be a bigger set of guidelines on what all I can take on than in the past. I'm looking for what that upper end of the Bell curve is without having to go test it to see that indeed it happens! When you get really old like me you too may be forced to accept that you can write the check, but maybe your body can't cash it all the time! LOL!!

I always worry about flipping and having an insulin reaction on the water (even though I've not had one in over 10 years as a type I diabetic)

I've never had a problem keeping my boat pointy-end up for the most part. I did have a freak wind gust auto-gybe me and death-roll me going downwind once, but I should have been doing the wild thing anyways and it wouldn't have mattered.

Live and learn.

Make sure your mast is sealed and you CAN right the boat. If it happens (and you aren't racing) just relax, take your time, once you get it up, just put her in irons for a bit while you collect your thoughts (and your breath). Reverse the rudders, travel in a bit and blast off once again.

The trick is having the confidence in your ability to right the thing. That way when it happens, you don't go into a panic.

Get a boat that is easy to right. (unless you are stuck with that nacra 5.2)

But definately make yourself a rope ladder to make getting back on less strainious.

Hang it off the mast step pin and flip it over the mainbeam when you want the mount the baot again after being thrown.

Simple trick, does the jump, and saves you from doing a second power trick after righting the boat. 50 % reduction in heart failure risk.

Wouter

Thanks, Wouter. You just gave me a good idea for something to make to get back on my boat -- in fact, maybe two or three ideas.

Hello Wouter and Mary,
You should both try climbing back onto a boat with a rope ladder. It is not as easy as you might imagine. What actually happens when you put your feet/foot/weight on a rung down in the water with your upper body against a rigid body like a beam or the side of a hull is that the ladder at your feet moves moves away from you quickly and goes under the hull or beam. Your center of gravity aligns itself with the center of support, the part of the ladder attached to the boat. Your chest and head and arms are located to the outside of the hull and your feet,legs and waist go under the hull. The lower end of the ladder approaches the horrizontal. You can't get vertical lift/push out of a horrizontal ladder. It turns into a mess and a real fight to use a rope ladder in the water. I found it easier to not use the ladder and just climb up on top of the beam/hull as best you can. A rigid ladder works fine, no problems.
Bill
PS How about the drough chute and righting the boat with the mainsail. The righter ends up on top of the tramp at the end of the process. No problem!

N5.2 Dick,

I understand your concern.

I also understand your love of sailing. So, you are asking very logical and open questions.

As for 'the flip', we have all done them. I have flipped in 5 knots of air before also In fact, this was the time the I 17 did not want to right itself! ( not enough wind to lift the sail) When I finnally agreed to have the RC boat assist me, the I 17 just slide on its side,, so it took forever to get the boat up even with powerboat help.( lifting the mast tip did not work either.

Here in the Caribbean, it is trade winds/waves 90% of the day/week/year. That would be 15-20 mph, 2-3 foot waves as normal.

I have not flipped in 2 years, and we sail/race year round. You just have to know the upper limits of your boat. Plus, I see my jib/main friends flip all the time, the Uni is kinder in this respect. In fact, when a knock-down gust come thru the course and the jib/main cats are going down,, I just throttle back knowing, that I will win that race, by just being under control and making it thru the course. I am sure you have all seem this on race day.

Here is another option, on 'big air' days, have a smaller set of sails made , to be used. This is what I did. In the last 20-mph regatta, I used the 'small' sail ( 150 sf) and the boat was a sweetheart at full throttle, never even considered a 'flip' at any time.

So, the best solution, I believe, is to 'out-think' the problem. What can I do to lower the chance of 'flipping'?

regards,
Bruce
St. Croix
USVI
I 17

ps; Is there a jib on your N 5.2? If so, maybe you consider a Uni boat. There are many available now. The F16HP's,F-17, etc. Plus, if you have these 'big winds', you do not need to go spin to have fun, these boats perform great,

Rope ladders are singularly useless, even for kids and tree houses, however us pirates could maybe benefit from the concept: Some people need to use the strength of their legs to climb aboard. Something that allows them to get a foot or knee purchase. How about a "single rung" rope ladder secured so the rung lies along the side of the hull, say at about waterline, when deployed? That way the rung can't get away from you when you attempt to climb. A 2 x 2 wood running board for boats.

Bill, I am completely aware that rope ladders do not work in the water, suspended from the hull or the beam. It is just that Wouter mentioning the word "ladder" made a light bulb go off in my mind -- the answer is not stepping, it is climbing.

I sail a Hobie Wave, which has unique problems. It has no dolphin striker. It has no trapeze handles to get hold of. And it has a lot of freeboard. Even if you have a "step" suspended in the water at the main beam, you have nothing above to get hold of to give you enough leverage to get back onto the boat. You cannot grab the mast high enough to be of help, because the sail is in the way. Women usually are not able to reach the hiking strap, and even if they can, they still do not have the strength or leverage to pull themselves back on the boat at that angle.

So it finally dawned on me that what I need to do is put an eye strap on the front of the mast up about 4 or 5 feet. From that eye strap I can suspend either a narrow rope ladder or a rope with big knots in it -- something to give me the ability to pull myself up onto the boat.

I have always known that I can right my boat easily but that I am totally incapable of getting back aboard after it is righted. I feel better now that I have come up with this solution, which I suppose should have been intuitive.

Next time I sail, I will try it out, just to gain peace of mind about being able to self-rescue myself. It is also comforting to be able to get back on your boat quickly when you are in waters that are infested with either sharks or alligators.

To Bruce and all the others that have given me ideas - thanks. I got this particular Nacra because I know it's history and record. It was purchased new in 1985 by one of our club and he used it for about 9 years to kick everyones butt in our weekly club races. He came in and said "Enough is enough - I flipped for the last time - when ya get to be 74 there are some things you have to stop doing" -- of course that was after he single handed righted it and came back to win that race! He is now 84 and waiting for me to get his boat back on the race course so he can come crew with me!! When I do that I'd just kinda like to do it in a reasonable manner - and all of your comments have helped. At a certain age you realize "out thinking" them has become a major tool!!

Dick
N 5.2 - 3002
Cats Paw

I rig a simple loop in my righting line. It hangs off the front crossbeam near the mast step. Normally the loop would be just under the water. It does not act as a ladder, it is something to push against when you can't quite get back on the boat.

I figured it out on the fly when a "crew" proved not strong enough to climb back on the boat and too heavy to lift.

I had a real eye openning experience a couple of years ago. Out of 34 people at a pool safety course only 2 were able to climb out without the ladder. That is a lot easier than climbing back on a boat

WOW.

After dumping my SuperCat 17 which had no dolphin striker and a big rise to the front beam I needed a way to drag my old fat body aboard when exhausted. I threw the righting line over the bridle where it meets the hull, then tied it off to the mast. The lines hung down as a "hammock" which I could step on while holding on between the the hull and beam. Very successful since my weight was centered over the line.

Now I keep a loop tied in the line by the mast and a carabiner at the right place out the line so I can clip this rig together quickly while swimming. Works great if exhausted.

I think most of us Wave sailors have the loop in our righting lines, but I still need something from above to pull myself up. Rick suggests grabbing the halyard to pull myself up, so I will give that a try, too.

Regarding rope ladders.

I have never tried climbing a rope ladder while in the water, but on land you always have to climb them sideways. Ie. not climb it on the front side like you do with a regular ladder, but 90 degrees to the side. Perhaps this would work in the water as well?

There are 'rope ladders' with aluminium steps, that would sink and not float a bit like regular rope. In technical rock climbing 'rope ladders' are quite common, perhaps something usable could be found cheaply at a climbing store if someone wants to try it out.

Allow myself to introduce my..self.
Have you ever seen a dolphin stand on its tail? Well my getting back on the boat would look just about like that if there were sharks and alligators!

I use a loop in my righting line as a step, but try to keep myself in good enough physical condition to not need it. It is there for times of fatigue and exhaustion.

GARY

Backside-up Easy Boarding: Float under to the back of the cat because it is much lower. The rudders are pushed sideways anyway to stall the boat- so hold them that way! Get inside the tiller crossbar up close to the rear beam to grab a hiking strap. Now get one foot up onto the hull- BEHIND you, as these leg muscles are often stronger. Combine the leg lift with your hiking strap arm to lever yourself onboard- and note your boat arm is now bending the CORRECT way so you can pull yourself over the rear crossbar with biceps.

With your backside UP, you don't have to get your butt so high up this way. Now I'm gonna make my wife try this. HAhahaha

Maybe this needs a video clip- anybody?

We have one of the World's Funniest Videos of a guy who got on at the back of the boat. I think I have told this story before on this forum.

It was a guy and his girlfriend on a Hobie 18 at one of our seminars back in the early 1990's. They capsized, and they managed to right the boat with little difficulty. The girl got back on the boat from up near the front and dutifully started getting the sheets organized and preparing her jib. Meanwhile, the guy swam to the back of the boat and got onto the boat over the back beam.

Now, as we all know, when you go to the back of the boat, the boat tends to turn downwind. So the boat turned downwind, the guy did manage to get onto the boat, but then lost his balance and immediately fell off.

The boat took off downwind with nobody at the helm, and did several wild jibes, with the main flying back and forth across the boat.

Meanwhile, the crew was dutifully looking forward, trying to tend to her jib. It was several "interesting" seconds before she noticed that her skipper was not on the boat. At that point she did the right thing, pushing the tiller over and stopping the boat by turning it into the wind.

And meanwhile, on the coach boat, Rick and I and guest expert Carlton Tucker were laughing hysterically as we went to pluck the embarrassed skipper out of the water.

Afterward, the crew said, "I turned around to reprimand him for not controlling the boat properly, and that is when I noticed that he was not there."

It was funny in the context of a controlled environment, hot weather, very warm water and a coach boat right there; but Carlton pointed out on the videotape that it could have been a very serious situation in cold water and without help nearby.

Sorry, we don't have our blooper videos in a form to show on the forum.

The easiest, safest, least exhausting way that I know of to get back on board any cat after it has been righted, is to position yourself in front of the front beam facing towards the stern of the cat, put both hands, forearms and elbows onto the trampoline with both hands pretty much under your chin. In this position it is relatively easy to raise yourself partially out of the water, at least enough so that you can swing one foot and part of the leg onto the deck of the nearest hull, with one leg on the deck and both arms on the trampoline at the front beam it is then simple (and easy) to bring your other leg also onto the deck. With both legs on the deck and both arms on the trampoline just roll your body backwards onto the trampoline (head facing to the sky) and WALLA success! This has never failed me as a successful way of remounting the "steed" in any weather that I have been able to sail in, and the beauty of it is that it is almost as non strenuous as stepping onto the tramp from off of a landing jetty (only a little more damp) and it matters not whether there is a dolphin striker or just a smooth, plain beam.

darryl,

That doesn't work so well if you have a self tacker mounted to the front beam. I always try to go to the windward side and grab the trap handle to pull myself up. If you go to the leeward side, your body dragging in the water tends to try and pull the boat further downwind.

Now that I have a self tacker too, and had righting practice 3 times the first time out on my Tiger including one turtle, I have been thinking about how to control that better in big air.
I think one person could stay on the front crossbar acting as the drag to keep the boat into the wind and held down. The other person could go up the windward trapeze. Then keep the boat head to wind while the second person does the trapese monkey climb.
It wasn't a problem in flat water and 15, but I have a feeling when the S*&t really hits the fan two people swimming for the side of the boat could let the thing get away.

I can testify to that - two of my friends flipped a Tiger and lost contact with the boat while manouvering around it to get into a righting position. The Tiger threw a pretty reasonable wake as it blew off downwind. We rescued the two drowned rats and delivered them back to the boat - but if we weren't around it could have been more serious....my first priority now is to keep contact with the boat at all times.

Chris.

Those damn self tackers!!!! It has always been my humble opinion that if a cat uses a self tacker then it shouldn't really have a jib!! The entire concept of a self tacker on a cat is to try to make the jib more "automated" and as such tends instead to make it almost superfulous to needs, and more of a liability than an advantage. I have always felt that on a cat that carries a spinnaker the jib gets in the way more often than it helps anyway.
I am sure that there are many sailors with quite contrary views though.

What is the problem with the selftacker ? I seriously fail to see one.

With regard to :

>>as such tends instead to make it almost superfulous to needs, and more of a liability than an advantage. I have always felt that on a cat that carries a spinnaker the jib gets in the way more often than it helps anyway.

I say, bring your boat without a jib and I'll beat you on the upwind leg in such a way that no downwind disadvantage will make up for it.

That is the "liability" of a selftacker

Wouter

As I said, many sailors with contrary views