Nacra F17 - Single-Handed Heaven

Single Handed Heaven?

Well, at best it has to share that title with an A-cat and the F-16.

If I did not make any major mistakes on a windward-leeward course and sailed my boat well, I could beat Bob Curry (who I believe is considered the best F-17 sailor to date) sailing his F-17R in light to medium air by 1-1.5 minutes elapsed. He still typically corrected out with that margin between us. Obviously I was faster upwind and he was faster downwind. The example here is the 2005 Alter Cup Area D Championship. It might have been somewhat different if in this regatta the race course had been set where we sailed the full length of the beat on Leg 1. With a potentially bigger lead for the A-cat, it would have been harder for Curry to close the gap to correct out. The RC set the course in this regatta with a split beat/run.

I'll settle for the overall performance of the A-cat because at the end of the day, I haul a 165 lb boat out of the water and have a lot less strings to rig and pull.

But if you have to have the chute, the I-17R could be your boat. If I was in that market, I'd like to see two evenly matched sailors race the I-17R against the F-16 singlehanded with chute. On paper, the F-16 sure looks better.

Bob Hodges
USACA
USA 230

Bob,

Cat Fight VII, being held in Racine, Wisconsin this year Aug 12 - 14, has fifteen F17s on the attending list and will start with the F16s, along with all the Low Portsmouth Spinnaker boats. If they show up, we will see the results.

http://www.catfightrace.com/

I am seriously awaiting the results of any good matched f16 vs f17 results. But who would the sailors be?

Hi Bob,
didja get ahold of Ederer?

I beg to differ. As far as I'm concerned, that title is shared also with the 18 Square. A well sailed Cat I comes to mind as far as competing with the newer designs... and upwind, even I on my Cat II stock NACRA can have moments of glory against same, I have the pic to prove it.

When them thar light boats are suffering overpowered in more than 15kt, my tuff ol' CatII Sq is waking up. Can you say, 'singlehand in 20kt+?' I bet y'all cain't 😉

Bob, will we see you at Island Hop?
sea ya
tami

Oh, so this is now a F17 vs F16? I'll take a 30' CARBON mast anyday no matter the overall platform weight! Seriously for a moment, there's a singlehander out there for everyone. But PTP, currently the F16 driver (singlehanded) is no match for the F17 driver so there will not be a good boat for boat challenge for quite some time or until CatFight7.

My 2 sense,

Bob <img src=

alt=

/>

What are the two P numbers difference? The F17 has the taller stick but I hear it weighs about 300? The F16 is about 230. What you need to do is take the top F16 driver vs. the top F17 driver, race, switch boats, race again...then see who's faster.

Bobke'

On paper if you consider the simple and stupid sail area to weight ratio comparison, the F-16 both in both double handed sloop and singlehanded uni configurations looks really good against a lot of boats (especially downwind) so that's why I'm interested in seeing the F-16 comparison to the I-17 with evenly matched sailors. A couple of years ago, I watched Jim Boyer race a spinnakerless Taipan 4.9 at Rehoboth. I was sailing with WF on the 18HT and we were amazed at how close the upwind performance of the Taipan was to the 18HT in 12-14 knots (keep in mind Jim did not have the weight of the spinnaker and snuffer on the boat).

I'm interested in the F-16 concept because I'm getting very involved in my yacht club's junior program as the 420 and Laser Radial coach. The kids just salivate over my A2 and I'll be

ruining

several of them in the near future taking them out for a sail. However, my A-class is not a double handed boat so I'm interested in the F-16 for the sole purpose to introduce these young sailors (I'm talking 12-18 year old teens) to state of the art high performance catamaran sailing. F-18 and I-20 are too heavy to handle and have too much sail area for these smaller sailors. The F-16 looks like a great recipe and the 230 lb overall weight is very attractive. Plus both the Taipan and the Blade are built extremely well.

The other thing I like about the F-16 is the bang for the buck. For around $15K, you can get a fully tricked out boat with trailer and covers and have the flexibility to race singlehanded and doublehanded.

But my favorite singlehander and boat is still the A-class. The quality of competition, simplicity, and ease of use factors are just too strong a draw and I credit the class for getting me really passionate again about cat sailing. And the boats are just so elegant on the water (clean and simple).

The Hobie Tiger, Nacra Infusion, and the I-17 are extremely
well designed and are good looking

sexy

boats but at this point I just could never see myself spending money on a 16' to 18' platform that weighs over 260 lbs. The A-cat and 18HT (and my lower back!) have skewed my preference too much towards the performance of the lighter platforms.

Bob Hodges

As has already been said, I think there's a singlehander for everyone, but I will say a few words on why I really like the F16. I like sailing with other people - there's nothing like having two people on the wire in a decent breeze - but finding two people who are equally committed to sailing is tough, and it always has been. I crewed on an F18 for the last few years. I really like the boats and the extremely competitive circuit. Sure, they're a bit heavy, but if you're heavy enough to make a decent crew, you've probably got the strength to drag it around. The problem is that we needed two people to sail it, and our jobs and other commitments meant increasingly that we couldn't make the time. It got to the point where we managed to sail only 3 times in 6 months.

I now sail a Blade, and we had a fantastic time at last week's F16 Nations Cup in the UK. What really made it a great weekend was that I was able to sail the first two days with my girlfriend, Ann, and then singlehand on the Monday when she couldn't get time off work. If we sailed an F18 then, apart from being underweight, we wouldn't have been able to sail the full weekend. If I'd been on a pure single hander, sailing would always be a non-inclusive activity. So, whilst I was interested to see how the F16s stacked up against the As at the Nations Cup, and will be keen to see out they go against the Nacras at Cat Fight, what really matters is that the F16 gets me on the water more often than I would otherwise. If you can use it to get some teens onto cats then great. I think it's the perfect boat for it, and as has been noted in another thread, most of the younger sailors seem to go straight into wobbly half-boats.

I've got a lot of time for the As. I love the simplicity and they're certainly very quick, but for me sailing with other people and hooning around with a spinnaker is an essential part of the fun.

Paul

Nop as the F17 doesn't exist.

It could be a Nacra 17 vs F16 thing but no more then that.

That is true. The best F16 sailors are in the UK, Australia and Asia and no nacra 17's worth mentioning there !

Hell, just last weekend we had a class race simultaniously in Florida USA and Wales UK. You were welcome to bring your boat to either event ! Missed you at the JPOR event last weekend, we had a class of F16's for you to race there !

So I guess it is indeed up the F16 class to grow towards that local club at lake michigan or else we'll never see a true head to head between these boats. Moreso as the US nacra 17 doesn't appear to be imported to Europe anyway. And it certainly won't be imported to other area's in the world.

For the remainder :

Them are pretty big words for a local 15 boat fleet at one US lake !

Lets hope that the nacra 17's can match up to their own claims for I certainly won't claim any of that for either the A's, 18's or the F16. For just last weekend we saw A's beating F16's (in the very light stuff) and F16's beating A's (in the other then light stuff). So we're still not favouring either boat over all conditions.

You ARE aware that the F16 alu mast is lighter than that 30' carbon mast ? Actually the Carbon section itself is already havier then the whole F16 alu mast ! Maybe, I shouldn't tell you how much lighter the F16 carbon mast is !

Ahhh, why not. F16 carbon (stealth F16) weights overall 13 kg and it may not get any lighter than that because of class rules. And therefor it is at least 4 kg lighter then yours.

I guess the nacra 17 carbon mast has the best of both worlds ! Heavier then alu and double the price.

Where are you now !

Give us a few years and we'll show up for a proper showdown ! A whole new generation of F16 sailors is being bred as we speak.

Wouter

Naturally we are all smack talking eachother most of the time. And that is good fun.

But on a more serious note I would say that there are a few classes I keep a really close eye on. Both in growth and engineering. A-cat class is definately one of these as is the F18 class. However one other particular class is not part of this listing on both accounts.

In all seriousness I say that I don't think much of the EU and Aussie nacra 17's. A decent skipper would be able to run them down no matter who is on them.

The US nacra 17 is a different topic. The rig here has been boosted enormously. It has 3 sq. mtr. (= over 30 sq. ft.) more mainsail area and a bigger spinnaker by 2 sq. mtr. (= over 20 sq.ft.). I actually expect this US nacra 17 to be rather fast in most conditions. If anything it will be a true race and not a shoe-in. So yes indeed put a comparable crew on both boats and see what happens !

At this point I also would like to underline that the F16 is not intended to be the best singlehander available. It always tried to be the best it could be while using relatively basic components and materials. Aluminium, glass, vinylester. That is why the new price is so attractive. I dare say that we have come a very long way like this. Just last weekend we saw 18.000 Euro A-cats racing 12.000 Euro F16's and it was too close to call an outright winner. And we had perfect A-cat weather most of the time (lightish winds).

Could the F16 be an A-cat killer ? Yes, but at the beginning we decided to take another route. We would try to get the best out of basic materials and basic components and try to stay under 15.000. This meant we had to let the

Ultimate F16 design go

. But I think we succeeded marvelously at our other goal, better then I expected. And there is still some more growth potential. I don't think we have max out the Blade F16 design yet.

But I'll say one thing about the F16's in relation to youth sailors. The F16's are very much racing boats; you have to know how to trim and depower them, because even that small rig can develop a whole lot of power. It is the same size as the Hobie 16 in platform and sail area, but the F16 can feel a whole lot more powerful. But when the trim is decent then it is a lovely ride. Especially under spinnaker I just love the boat.

It seems to the be a very good boat for light to medium crews to hang with the best of the F18's. And these are crews that would really be too light for the F18 themselfs.

If I can help in any way with the youth program you have then let me know.

Anyway good luck to all.

Wouter

Bob,

If it is of any help, we have got a 5000 US$ Taipan 4.9/F16 on offer here in Florida.

It has got a new F16 jib and mainsail, so it doesn't have the jib blocks on the trampoline anymore giving this boat ample tramp space.

It comes with spare sails, I believe, as in the older Taipan 4.9 suit of sails. This boat was raced to a win by Michael Coffman in the round the Island race some 3 years ago, so it is a good boat.

This may just be the boat for these youngster as it doesn't involve a too high investment moneywise; while still giving them a pretty decent racing boat.

This boat has a add in the catsailor webpage classifieds.

Wouter

That's just not true. It's true that Nacra's F17 doesn't conform to any formula class. In fact, their webpage has

one design

in large letters across the top. But like it or not, the Nacra's 17 foot singlehander is called the Nacra F17.

Paul

Like I always say. I refuse to call the nacra 17 a F17 unless it get truly open class rules and allows 3rd party suppliers. Otherwise it is just a marketing gimmick and we'll end up with something akin to some guy calling some team

the F18 world champions

when they only won a 20 boat NACRA F18 world championship and NOT the true F18 world championship which was won by Bundock and Ashby. And this actually happened only a few weeks ago so this forum.

Additionally the Nacra Inter 20, which used to be a F20 but has gone one-design, is NOT called a Nacra F20 but rather the Nacra 20. So it is not like their hole product line is called F-something; remember the Nacra Infusion ?

And moreso I refuse to call basically the same boat by 10 different names. The change from I-17R to F17 was ONLY a larger spinnaker which can only be used by heavy skippers as the lighter skippers are still required to use the smaller (I-17R) spi. So basically it is still a Inter-17R, but since nacra has dropped the name

inter

with all their products I started using the name Nacra 17. Which is more in line with the naming convention of Nacra Infusion, Nacra F18 and Nacra 20 which they are using currently.

I can understand when people don't agree to this but that is the way I see it.

Wouter

The world really is a very small place when we are online chatting on the forum. Problem is for us sailors is that having 2 F16's in Europe, one in South Florida, and one in Birmingham doesn't do much if you want to get together and race. Then there are the A-boats which further split the fleet. I truly believe any unisailor would be happy sailing either the F16, NACRA 17/F17/I17R, or the A cat. At this point though, the battle between the F16 and F17 just further divides the fleet here in the US. Maybe 15 to 20 years from now one boat will emerge as the majority boat but for now I guess we better get used to handicap racing. ( unless you live near Michigan)

As for as the F16 being an A cat killer, I don't know. But in last years Alter Cup Qualifier here in area D (I believe that's our area here in Pensacola) the F17's pretty much destroyed the A-cats boat for boat!!

Tom Turlington
NACRA 17 #12

I've never been a fan of Nacras. They have been their own (and their customers) worst enemy over the years, regularly changing designs requiring existing owners to upgrade or buy the new thing. Their hype has always tended toward outrageous and their boats have been pretty ordinary in the main. Calling the 17 'Inter 17' was a lame attempt to make the boat appear to be an ISAF international class and now it's F17 to try to cash in on the formular trend which as Wouter points out, the inter17 definitely isn't.

We have some guy named Matt Struble in Michigan sailing an F17. I consider him the best in our class.

You are not paying much attention to world affairs are you now ?

Last weekend, simultaniously, we saw 12 F16's at Nations cup in UK and 5 F16's at the US JPOR Harken bouy race event.

Right now, this weekend, over in Australia we are having the

Victoria state F16 Challenge

.

In two weeks Time, we're back in the US again for the Daytona summer sizzler, also part of the Harken Bouy race series. We are looking to make class there again as we did at Tradewinds and JPOR; thus making 3 in a row, something the other classes (F18, Nacra 20, A's, Nacra 17) except H16 couldn't do.

Then the weekend after that, back to the UK again for the East Coast Pierce race. Later followed by the second F16 UK race series event in Eastbourne.

Hell, I forgot the Singapore race calender, maybe there is something overthere in these weeks as well.

This is not a N17 vs F16 battle !

That would imply the other side is actually putting up a fight. We are cleaning up !

I sure do hope that at the next Florida Harken bouy race event (Daytona) the overwhelming numbers of participating A's and Nacra 17's make some room for those lonely F16 sailors that have already preregistered.

You are coming to that event right and bringing all your friends so you make class ?

Wouter

(P.S. otherwise come anyway and share a start with the F16's I'm sure they'll welcome you. The more more souls on the start-line the greater the fun. ) You'll have to race first in wins though.

Actually this whole

boat type 1

vs

boat type 2

is silly. Lets just share a startline and course and enjoy ourself while we better outself again all possible others.

Wouter

Wouter:

I agree, let just learn to sail better. Who cares what the other guys sails!! That is one of the reasons I now have three boats. PLUS I really wanted to learn spinnakers.

Doug and Ashleigh Snell
Hobie 17 #007 (Bond eat your heart out)
Sunfish
Soon to be Mystere 4.3 # 149
Want a Nacra A2

Sorry, I can't make the Florida race due to a cycling event. I thought I'd shoot for the Singapore race! Fits into my schedule better. Really convenient too!

Tom Turlington
F17 #12
Lower Alabama

There seems to be a recurring phenomenon. People who have been away for awhile are getting back into cat' sailing.

The local youth group is interested in establish mast up storage for cats, seemingly to retain the interest of their teen sailors. As a result, I will be changing my local club affiliation to this group and making the Blade and the Tiki available to them.

One of the guys interested is a former Division 8 H14 Champ and H16 competitor who now has a teenage son. I have offered the Blade to them at their convenience.

Their chief guru is interested in putting on Cat' regatta, but is most interested in January which would conflict with Tradewinds. I have strongly discouraged this date.

If anyone is interested, I'll be glad to keep you posted.

Pete I would be interested considering that Cape Coral iant too far from me. Albeit maybe this event can be a more than a day sail??

Keep me posted

It would be like any other regatta, two days.

The beach is less than 100 yards from U.S. 41 and there is a motel on the water well within walking distance, a motel across the street, also within walking distance and at least two restaurants within walking distance. So, this is a very convenient venue.

btw- it isn't in Cape Coral, it's in North Ft. Myers. http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&a...p;scene=1926015 Type in

North Fort Myers Florida

you will see 3 bridges, zoom in on the single bridge and the North shore, click on

Bird's eye view

and that's the spot. (you should be seeing 4-lanes of U.S. 41, a beach and park that make a right angle with the North shore of the Caloosahatche River. The building is a motel.

Thom,

You started this. I remember at that regatta that I beat the I-17's boat for boat in at least 3 out of 5 races but could never correct out against Curry (I did beat you boat for boat and corrected in 4 out of 5 races). So maybe you can explain again how I was destroyed?

Bob Hodges

Thom,

You started this. I remember at that regatta that I beat the I-17's boat for boat in at least 3 out of 5 races but could never correct out against Curry (I did beat you boat for boat and corrected in 4 out of 5 races). So maybe you can explain again how I was destroyed?

Bob Hodges

Bob,

I tried to find the old spreadsheet after I saw your post but was unsuccessful. As I remember it, I was able to win out over the other 3 to 5 A-cats for most of the regatta while beating you only on race one. Of course, my trying to drag

B

mark back to the starting line on race two didn't help my speed any.

I was thinking Curry won most of the races against you boat for boat. As you could see in my post, I was trying to keep this on a boat vs boat level by saying that the F17's destroyed the A boats in this regatta.

I believe I have made my point by saying that the two F17's were able to get more wins against the A-cats than the A's did against the F17.

But if your point is that you were able to beat me more than I beat you in the regatta, you are correct.

Tom Turlington

ps. I look forward to seeing you again at Island Hop...... (-:

And how do you like the spinnaker so far ?

Wouter

Tom,

In Race 1, the combination of overlaying and then nearly turning over at A mark let you and Curry get ahead to the point I could not catch back up to you.

I know for sure that I finished 1-1.5 minutes ahead of Bob in Races 3-5 but was frustrated that I could not correct out on him. I can't remember in Race 2 if I beat Bob boat for boat.

I think the comparison between Bob and I in that event represents how the A-cat will sail against the I-17 in W-L buoy races. I concluded that a well sailed A-cat will beat an I-17 boat for boat but will struggle to correct out. Of the other A-cats, I know Woody Cope was dealing with a sail that was not that competitive off the wind and Rush Bird was sailing a borrowed boat.

Bob raised the level of I-17 sailing up a notch when he started sailing in the class. I anticipate the Michigan I-17 fleet will do the same with their numbers and with Matt Struble in the fleet. That's a good thing for the I-17 class.

Bob

Bob,

I just wanted to point out that the above quote was in the same post as the remark you quoted me on. Now back to the

my boat is better than your boat

discussion .........

Yeah, I remember seeing a boat in the corner of my eye at

A

mark during race 1 that I thought was going to go over in a crowd of boats during the rounding. You did a fine job saving it!

As far as you being frustrated that you couldn't close up on the Unimaster, try racing him every week.

Also, thanks for pointing out all the problems with the other A Boat skippers. Did I mention I had a runny nose during the whole regatta?? <img src=

alt=

/>

BTW, I found out this weekend that I didn't know how to sail a unirig in 2005. I've been sailing it like .........well, I haven't been sailing at all, just setting everything and steering like hell.

Now that you have noticed all the talented sailors coming into the F17 fleet, it may be time for you to pickup a used F17. There are 2 guys in Pensacola that could possibly be persuaded to sell. They just do not have the time to sail anymore it appears. I think you would really enjoy it.

In summary though, I believe my original statement was correct. The F17's had more boat for boat wins against the A boats than the other way around. I didn't say this to

put down

the A cats. I said it because I just get tired of seeing it over and over on the forum that the F17 is too heavy to be competitive. Actually, in many situations, I believe the extra weight may even be a plus......

Tom

The A cat is a more competitive fleet in the US and Worldwide. That is the most important thing to most (but not all) competitive sailors.