That's a great quote PPS, but the last time I even saw an A cat was in November 2005 in the regatta Bobster and I are discussing.
I guess I could get one and just feel that I was part of something much larger than I am but have no one to sail against unless I travelled to far away places each time. Or I could get an F17 and drive 10 mintues away to race other F17's.
Also, would you buy an A cat if you lived near the area where Catfight is held every year to be in a fleet that is more competitive worldwide if you already have a local fleet of F17's that is 15 to 20 boats strong?
I'm guessing some of the sailors in the F17 fleet could compete quite nicely with the A cat sailors be they local or half a continent away.
Tom
Tom, could you give us some examples?<img src=
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Thanks
Actually, in many situations, I believe the extra weight may even be a plus......
Tom
Tom,
To sum up, I think you will always see a
well sailed
A-Cat still probably finish slightly ahead of a
well sailed
I-17 boat for boat in buoy racing. But as long as the ratings remain what they are, that A-boat will probably have a tough time correcting out against the
well sailed
I-17 as we saw in November. Distance racing is a different scenario. If you guys have a long downwind leg, we're in trouble. Just be sure we don't have a long upwind leg to catch back up to you!
Regarding A-boats in the south and how we
dilute
the singlehanded racing. We currently have 8 active boats in LA and TX (which will grow to 10 in September), two in the Fort Walton area, 3 in Atlanta, and I believe 10-12 boats in central and south Florida. Mark Ederer in Ocean Springs is ready to buy a boat and I had gotten him in contact with a seller in Annapolis last week.
Besides our Midwinter Race Week this past January with 42 boats racing, we were the largest one design fleet at the Deep South Regatta in Lake Charles in April, the largest one design fleet at the Galveston Bay Catamaran Championship in May, and the largest one design fleet at the Wayward Winds Regatta (also on Galveston Bay) last October. Each of these local events had 7 A-cats racing. The Gulfport, FL A-Class/F-16 event had 9 A-boats racing. I have told my district chairmen for central and south Florida and the Gulf coast that we want to make it a priority to try to get more boats in the Panhandle. With the availibility of the excellent Bim XJ being built by Vectorworks in Titusville, we hope to see that happen. So if you, Chris Sawyer,and Bob MUR get tired of just racing each other, we'll be happy to welcome you all to our fleet.
Regards,
Bob Hodges
A2 USA 230
Bob,
You've got some minor A cat activity building in Atlanta, GA too - two F17 sailors sold their boats in lieu of A's earlier this year and have been hitting the local regatta circuit. They claim to be very pleased with their new rides.
Bob,
It's good to hear that Mark E. is going Uni. He is an excellent sailor and will make a good addition to the A Cat fleet.
As far as getting the core F17 sailors in my area to switch over, I think the traveling is still a problem even though the races you named are relatively close. It would still involve over night stays etc. Bob MUR has ranching duties that have to be taken care of on the weekends so he usually needs a day for that. Chris S. is supporting his son in his quest to become a stock car racer, and I have my 50-60 mile
fast
ride with the cycling club on Sundays. Then there is the financial aspect to consider, (of switching boats) and the fact that we wouldn't have a local dealer to support us. Also, as you know, we have some really fun distance races here which can be blast to do on the F17. The two Seabuoy races, RTI in FWB, and the two events at OSYC. By the way, that was an excellent pitchpole you had last year on the reach back from Horn Island!! I had a ring side seat since I was right behind you.
As far as which boat will win out when it comes to A cats vs F17's, you would have to consider many different variables. The biggest problem would be getting two skippers of equal ability. Then there would be the question of weather: wind strength, etc.
I was still a bit surprised how close the F17's were to the A's on the upwind legs though at the Alter Elim. 2005. Then, we had that reach to deal with. Throw out the reach and let us pop the spins that much earlier and the results may have been even more in favor of the 17's.
The more I think about it, the more I conclude that you cannot really compare these boats to each other. It’s all in what type boat you would rather sail. The A boat is easy to rig, and you only have the one sail to worry about. The F17 can be a monster to handle especially when the wind get up, and because of that, some of us
old
skippers are getting into better shape than we have been in years. So, it boils down to the following:
What are they racing in your area?
How much travelling are you willing to do?
How much rigging do you want to have to deal with?
Do you like to distance race?
Are you willing to work hard on the water all day on your day off?
Tom Turlington
NACRA F17 #12
Litespeed Vortex, Dura Ace, Mavic Ksyrium SL Wheelset
One of the things I really enjoy about the Acat is the simplicity of the rigging. I also own a HT and a have owned a Dart 16 and both are much harder to rig. The Dart was heavy to move around and the mast was (is) heavy. The HT is a pain to rig for a daily sail.
By contrast the A is simple to rig, so I tend to run down to the ramp after work and get in a quick sail, I wouldnt have done that with either of my previous boats.
At one point I left my HT at Sail Newport, which was 2 hours away just so I could leave it rigged and ready to go.
I'm pretty sure I'll get more sailing in with the Acat and thats a big plus for me.
Bill
One other factor that you need to consider is:
Does the
pick a fleet
travel to the events that you want to go to.... OR... are they content with their mast up storage and local racing scene and how does your life match this scene.
The Bristol RI A cat fleet has international level sailors and they race on Tuesday night's. By and large.. most of these guys don't travel for local or regional cat or big regatta type events. So they have a couple of A cat lovers who drive 2 hours each way for tuesday night racing. Not the typical weeknight racer!
Just down the coast is the Mid Atlantic Hobie 17 fleet. They don't have a mast up storage home... They race on weekends at the standard Hobie 2 day regattas and have had great turnouts year after year with 35 to 45 boats at their regionals (or nationals). So, if your life does not let you get away for the weeknight racing.... You have the weekend Hobie 17 option.
My point is that perhaps more important them what boat you choose to sail is what is the schedule of the fleet you join and how close to you it is.
Since racing is a social activity...you must have others of like mind in agreement to go race on X day and know that they make good on their commitment and show up.
While the debate is interesting
which rig is faster...
Light A cat verus heavy spin cat...
Most handicappers would tell you... .... eh... you have to seperate spin's from non spins..... that is the critical factor... Thje single handed or double handed split always seems to tilt to the single hander becuase the teamwork needed to make the two man boat go is not trivial....
I personally believe that when you have a good team racing a good singlehander the ratings work properly.
which rig is faster...
Light A cat verus heavy spin cat...
How about a light spin cat ? <img src=
alt=
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Besides who says that you have to rig the spi on a weekday evening sail ?
I do evening sails as well and I rig the spin when I feel like it and don't when I don't feel like it.
It is not like you HAVE to rig the spi.
Wouter
Quote:
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While the debate is interesting
which rig is faster...
Light A cat verus heavy spin cat...
How about a light spin cat ?
Ah... I knew you would rise to the bait Wouter.
You are focusing on the qualities of the boats.... (I should not have used heavy in my desription of the N17.)
From what I have observed... sailors who factor racing class heavily into their boat choice equation are probably looking at the immediate racing scene in their region. They recognize that everyone has to buy into the same boat in order to get what they want out of their racing hours..
Sailors who are looking at the flexibility and fit of the boat to their kind of sailing are less concerned about a racing scene and so strenght of the racing class drops well down on the list of priorities.
For example We have four Taipan's on the bay within 20 miles but have gotten no more then two out at the same time and that is but once. (three live on the same beach) Is this a class?
To me.... the term racing class describes the people and their commitment to racing more then the boat. The Bristol A class does their thing on tuesday nights. the Mid Atlantic Div 11 Hobie 17 class does their thing on weekends. These racing classes are very clear on exactly what they do.
The Bristol fleet races A cats on Tuesday nights. Period!
The Div 11 H17 fleet races H17's on 6 weekends a year. Period!
This commitment is the most important factor in the term RACING CLASS. it's the people and their shared commitment... not their shared boats that is the essential ingredient of a succesful racing class.
So, Bob Hodges is very clear about what his Southern A class needs to do... Identify what the commitment is of the A class sailors outside the existing areas of strenght and support that commitment when that's possible. Perhaps some of those sailors don't care about the
racing A class
... just like my local Taipans dont care... That's fine ...... its just a tough call for Bob to make ... because everyone is brainwashed to say...
Oh Yes... racing class is very important to me... Yes I will support the program
... when really.... its down on the list and they value other priorities when push comes to shove. (nothing wrong about this either... its the way it is)
I recently looked back on my notes from Stuart Walker's talk with respect to resentment in a class. Once you get people organized and on the same page with respect to their commitment... Then you have to manage Stuarts resentment notion. Else... things can quickly fall apart.
Here's an interesting comparision table I did primarily for my own curiosity:
F-16 240 300 201 389 0.37 0.72
A-Class 165 165 150 150 0.45 0.45
F-17 320 165 170 337 0.35 0.69
F-18 396 330 228 454 0.31 0.63
F-18HT 285 330 215 430 0.35 0.70
I-20 390 350 246 516 0.33 0.70
M-20 253 330 250 500 0.43 0.86
Tornado 350 330 258 527 0.38 0.78
For each boat listed, column 1 is boat weight, column 2 is average crew weight, column 3 is upwind sail area, column 4 is downwind sail area, column 5 is upwind sail area/combined weight, and column 6 is downwind sail area/combined weight. The ratios are essentially horsepower/weight ratios. While this ignores several factors such as hull shapes, foils, and waterline length I thought it could offer a general indicator of relative performance.
My own personal conclusions (backed up by actual racing) are that upwind the A-cat obviously looks best and I think in under 8-10 knots of wind, it always is. Once the bigger boats start to power up, the Tornado is faster and I would say the M-20 should be faster. The I-20 and the F-18 get closer but the A-cat still has a very noticeable speed edge.
Downwind, the F-16 ratio looks impressive against the bigger boats and that is why I am so interested in its performance. Matt McDonald feels the F-16 sailors are getting better and better and are now really challenging the F-18's boat for boat in combined fleet racing. The numbers above seem to suggest that could be the case and the performance and suitability of the boat to lighter crews hopefully will continue its own niche while not really affecting the F-18 class which is better suited to a bigger crew. The I-17 actually looks pretty good downwind also. It should have a bigger advantage downwind against the A-cat compared to the advantage the A-cat has against it upwind. It begs the question why does the A-cat give the I-17 time on handicap with this upwind/downwind performance comparison. How does the I-17 do boat for boat against an I-20 downwind? On paper it looks faster and I would think its also faster than an F-18.
Am I wrong in this evaluation, what am I missing in the conclusions above? Fun stuff to play with.
Bob Hodges
Interesting.....F16 uni numbers with my weight
F16 Uni 240 155 161 349 0.41 0.88
I20 and F17 comparison...Performance mid-winters we had a combined start. The I20 was hotter upwind and I remember getting clobered on the starts by Bob Curry but catching him 3/4 the way to A mark and passing fairly easy to leward...Bob wasn't breathing very hard at the time though. I'm sorry I don't have a downwind comparison but I don't recall Bob catching us once we got past him. During the light stuff, I remember about the same difference...but again don't recall any direct in downwind difference.
Bob,
You should add the F16 1-up specs :
F-16 (1-up) 240 165 161 350 0.40 0.86
Additionally, here some direct comparisons between A's and F16's at the nations cup 2 weeks ago.
http:/
Winds tended to be light at the event starting at 6 to 7 knots and peaking out at 12-13 knots later.
I wasn't there myself but the reports have it that fortunes were reversed when the winds picked up.
So A's winning in the lighter stuff, F16's winning in the medium stuff.
However, to me it also appears the courses were short. For example in the last race the first finisher got in after 43:10 and after completing 5 laps. Such short courses do impact significantly on spi boats and favour boats like the A's. Your spi skills must be excellent if you want to make large gains on such downwind legs (less then 4 minutes longs).
But this is interesting data nevertheless, there is more but I nede to dig that up and I don't feel like doing that now.
Personally I think some more performance can and will be pushed out of the F16's. The Blade crews are still tuning their boats (they were only delivered 5 weeks ago). Also in the past the skill level between the two classes was rather significant with the A sailors just being better, but like Matt says we are closing the gap there. The boats really do look to be a close match around the course and that is good enough for me. As stated earlier we never looked to become the fastest kid on the block, just becoming the most practical one is good enough for us.
Gary Maskiel in Australia is running with the A's. My personal experiences are along the lines
below 6 knots A's win, between 6 and 11 it dependents, 12 and up F16 have slight advantage
. But I must say that the last time I raced an skilled A-cat sailor directly was back in spring 2005. Since then I've seen more but the skill level was just to big and I finished many minutes ahead.
Here a video file showing the conditions of the weekend. It also shows some close singlehanded spinnaker dual between two F16's all the way to the finish.
The file is about 100 mb in size (it is a rough cut with camera man commentary !); Sorry we've haven't had any time to edit the files to a more manageable size.
http:/
Wouter
Mark,
cat sailors will say alot of things and then don't live up to them anyway.
I focus on racing in every shape or form and that fully includes handicap racing. If never shared the One-design fetishm of the USA sailors.
In this respect I'm on the right boat as my racing scene is dominated by F18's that I can't compete on singlehanded. Even the A-cats are only a minor class overhere and more often then not get hammered by spinnaker boats as we also tend to run longer courses overhere then in the US. 45 minutes and only 2 laps is standard. This makes for sufficiently long spi legs.
So I don't buy into the zero sum game in any way or form. I'll race any nacra 17, A-cat, FX-one, F16 and F18 that cares to share a startline with the other boats. First in wins ! A long time ago I dropped the believe that anything but the nut behind the tiller makes a significant impact on the end result.
I believe the differences in speed between A's, nacra 17's, F16's and what not are relatively small and therefor easily overcome by very small differences in sailor skills. So I give alot more attention to other points of a design. Like practicality, feel of sailing etc.
Wouter