Looks like Harry may have been right about the new rules and mark rounding when they are applied to gates.
From Dave Perry in Scuttlebutt
Rule 18.4 (gybing at a leeward mark) does not apply at a gate mark. This may be
the biggest “game change” in the new rules. When a leeward “gate” is being used
(two leeward marks close to one another that boats pass between and exit in
either direction), rule 18.4 does not apply (see rule 18.4). That means that
when a boat is approaching a gate mark on the inside with right of way over
other boats (and assuming that rule 17 does not apply; i.e., she did not become
overlapped from clear astern which would require her to not sail above her
proper course), she does not need to gybe to sail her proper course around that
mark for as long as she remains the right-of-way boat. She may sail farther from
the mark than needed to sail her proper course, even if she has no intention of
sailing over to the other gate mark. She might do this because she is having
difficulty lowering her spinnaker, or because she wants to push the outside boat
outside of the zone or over to the other mark. Outside keep-clear boats will
need to keep clear of her under rules 10 (port/starboard) or 11
(windward/leeward). The take-away here is, more than ever, outside boats should
not have their bows “locked” outside of boats they are giving room to or keeping
clear of at marks.
Boy I hope the PRO sets a wide gate!!!... are you listening, Mike, Mark, Matt
Holy $H!T........ Make sure you are the inside boat or make sure you are in a possition to gybee if needed.
Who is up to test the suggestion from Gurra Kranz now? <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
Ref: http:/
Ref: http:/
I still think the
no-rules
thing will be a nightmare.
You have to remember that Dave Perry has a monohull mindset. I've had the opportunity to talk with him before regarding catamaran tactics / rules situations and he admits he has little / no experience with cats.
Monohulls approach a gate at much shallower angles, and much slower speeds than catamarans. This rule tweak will affect them.
Catamarans, not so much. The right side is still king; coming into a gate on starboard is the way to be. The only way I can see this coming into play is if you are match racing somebody and want to mess with them - which could backfire if you're not careful (they jibe on top of you and now they're the inside boat going to the left gate).
My gates will continue to be (as they always have been) from 7 to 10 boatlengths wide, depending on wind, sea state and number of boats in the fleet.
The
no-rules
proposal is silly. It turns the whole race into a game of
chicken
, where the driver with the biggest balls wins.
the way I interpret the rule, coming into the right gate on port, gives you all the rights in the world as inside boat. You can force the pinwheel to let you in with as much room as you like...
Which is the way it's always been . . .
(I'm assuming you mean the right gate looking downwind - my reference point for right vs. left is looking upwind.)
People still look at you funny when you're on port and they are on starboard and you are calling for room. Especially when they respond with 'starboard' and you respond with 'room'.
But, that 'take as much room as you want' thing, that could get messy.
Here is a link to the new rules: http:/
]
but that didn't work.
The way I read this is the minute the inside boat gets within 3 hull lengths to the mark she has all the rights in the world. It doesn't matter if she is on port or starboard. So a port inside boat can force a starboard boat to gybe. It's going to be a lot easier to force a boat to round the other gate mark or at least force them to throw two extra gybes in. I don't like it. It gives too much power to the inside boat at a gate and can cause some very fancy manuevering.
Guys,
You are thinking that both boats can take
as much room as they want
as the inside boat .... but if you factor in
Port/Starboard
rights this could be interesting ...
Example: I come into the leeward gate gate on starboard and I can
take as much room as I want
so I sail past the left hand mark ... to the point that a port tacker who is planning to round the right hand mark says I do not leave him
all the room they wish
... then the starboard boat gybes and rounds the left hand mark while the port tacker is forced
dead down wind
to avoid the collision and rounds the right hand mark eventually ....
Can I argue as the starboard boat and because I rounded the other mark that the port boat was never inside to me and I had Starboard rights
This will be interesting ....
HarryMurphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX/#86, CRAC-Open Class
long discussion on this thread.
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubb...
It depends on which gate you are going for; if you do not round one; and then stray into the other 3 BL circle then the onus switches as you are coing from the
wrong side
; IMO this rule has been worded very carefully to try and ensure people come from the
outside
of the course to each side of the gate (so they gybe round the gate).
Read the linked thread; we went into it in great detail.
Ok, you lost me...
Any good sites where they explain the rules graphically...? Starting and upwind mark is clear to me, but the gate not at all.
Please continue discussing... 🙂
]
but that didn't work.
The way I read this is the minute the inside boat gets within 3 hull lengths to the mark she has all the rights in the world. It doesn't matter if she is on port or starboard. So a port inside boat can force a starboard boat to gybe. It's going to be a lot easier to force a boat to round the other gate mark or at least force them to throw two extra gybes in. I don't like it. It gives too much power to the inside boat at a gate and can cause some very fancy manuevering.
Inside Port has always had room to round rights inside the zone - they're overlapped and inside.
The one that still blows my mind is the boat coming in on starboard to a downwind mark (looking downwind at the approaching gate) may have rights if the port boat is able to give it to him...he may not if they can't. Don't try to force starboard rights on a freight train of ports within the zone - you might lose that one.
I guess it's all a comfort thing but I have this really uneasy feeling about the new rules...maybe it's just that I'm starting to get old and crusty. The first rule set that I truly learned and learned well were the 2005 to 2008 rules and I felt that those were really easy to learn. After reading the new rule changes and studying them a couple of times, I still feel pretty unclear about them. I even have Dave Perry's new book and I still have several unresolved questions. Does anybody else feel this way or am I just getting crusty?
Maybe all this confusion will be a good thing, make the Kamikazes think twice...
I agree with Matt, let's set the gates as usual and adjust if needed.
Jake's point is excellent, but remember that regardless of which side you're coming from, if you're inside, you can only get room if it can be given.
Every time the rules are changed people freak out. Let's all just take a deep breath and work it out on the water.
Mike
]
but that didn't work.
The way I read this is the minute the inside boat gets within 3 hull lengths to the mark she has all the rights in the world. It doesn't matter if she is on port or starboard. So a port inside boat can force a starboard boat to gybe. It's going to be a lot easier to force a boat to round the other gate mark or at least force them to throw two extra gybes in. I don't like it. It gives too much power to the inside boat at a gate and can cause some very fancy manuevering.
Inside Port has always had room to round rights inside the zone - they're overlapped and inside.
The one that still blows my mind is the boat coming in on starboard to a downwind mark (looking downwind at the approaching gate) may have rights if the port boat is able to give it to him...he may not if they can't. Don't try to force starboard rights on a freight train of ports within the zone - you might lose that one.
I assume you mean when on stbd and rounding the gate to port, in which case the stdb boat has rights to ROOM to round, if the port boat(s) can give it; back to the discussion we had over here
Somebody sanity-check this for me. If you follow all the links to Dave Perry's
game-changers
you will see that they also changed rule 18 to NOT make the inside boat on port a
right-of-way
boat anymore, it is simply entitled to
mark room
(again, if it can be given).
I would see this as a serious clarification that would limit the ability of the port boat to take out a starboard boat at the port gate mark (looking upwind). Since the port boat does not have
right of way
it should not be entitled to this new ability to go as far as they want before they turn to round the mark.
If this is true, this wouldn't actually change too much, because even though the port boat used to be called a right-of-way boat, it was essentially limited to room to gybe and round the mark (if inside of a starboard boat), and was expected to make a seamanlike rounding (meaning, no driving to China).
EDIT: I very clearly recall attending a Dave Perry seminar when these rules first came about, and gates were becoming popular (circa 2000). He went on and on about the fact that if you were inside on port, you had to round in a seamanlike manner. If you were inside on starboard, you were entitled to a tactical (enter wide, exit close) rounding. This was a major point of discussion that probably lasted for 45 minutes, and was brought up over and over through the course of the day, including some group exercises. Again, I think the verbiage of all the new rules taken together really have the same intent in this area (aka: DON'T PANIC!!!).
Mike
Somebody sanity-check this for me. If you follow all the links to Dave Perry's
game-changers
you will see that they also changed rule 18 to NOT make the inside boat on port a
right-of-way
boat anymore, it is simply entitled to
mark room
(again, if it can be given).
I would see this as a serious clarification that would limit the ability of the port boat to take out a starboard boat at the port gate mark (looking upwind). Since the port boat does not have
right of way
it should not be entitled to this new ability to go as far as they want before they turn to round the mark.
If this is true, this wouldn't actually change too much, because even though the port boat used to be called a right-of-way boat, it was essentially limited to room to gybe and round the mark (if inside of a starboard boat), and was expected to make a seamanlike rounding (meaning, no driving to China).
EDIT: I very clearly recall attending a Dave Perry seminar when these rules first came about, and gates were becoming popular (circa 2000). He went on and on about the fact that if you were inside on port, you had to round in a seamanlike manner. If you were inside on starboard, you were entitled to a tactical (enter wide, exit close) rounding. This was a major point of discussion that probably lasted for 45 minutes, and was brought up over and over through the course of the day, including some group exercises. Again, I think the verbiage of all the new rules taken together really have the same intent in this area (aka: DON'T PANIC!!!).
Mike
Check the definition of
mark room
.
Jake - you're not crusty... at least not for feeling unsure about the new rules. Every four years, I take the class. Last time, I got Dave Perry - very entertaining. Sunday, I'm taking the North U class from Brad Dellenbaugh. I'm feeling pretty good about admitting the need to take the class - I'll be in good company with Pease Glaser, Ian Sammis, and a catsailor to be named later.
My opinion is that the rules have become overly complicated, that is why I push Gurras proposal forth from time to time. When there is a rules book (a real size book), a case study book, third party rules explanation books, classes and I know what, and people still dont get the rules straight, there must be a better way to do it.
For example, this youtube film was linked to in norwegian sailing media today: http:/
A pretty simple case really, but it still ended in a crash.
Getting a really simple ruleset would slash costs for events and our organizations, and make it easier on the sport. Other sports manage with far simpler rules, and I dont see why sailing should not be able to do the same.
Looks like that was more a case of paying attention than knowing the rules.
I dont know if it was lack of attention on the leeward port, windward port (looks like there was room to tack but would starboard have missed windward port?), starboard tacker or lack of rules knowlegde.
My thinking is that we have all these rules, and still there are collisions and other infringements. What Gurra wants to try is very simple and would keep everybody focusing on avoiding collisions instead of estimating speeds and headings while analyzing the rules and how they apply before realizing one have put the boat in a really bad situation.
When was the last rules seminar did people attend?
When did your club last go over common situations and the rules interpretations?
When was the last protest heard and did the fleet understand the protest.... (or did it devolve that X was an **** for filling a protest...)
The philosophy ... the rules should be simple and clear is universally agreed on.. So why the problem?
Perhaps the space and timing problems presented by sailboat racing require some practice in using the rules.
IMO, the rules and their interpretation are part of the game that makes it interesting to play.
Check the definition of
mark room
.
Scooby, I did, that's what led me to my conclusion (port inside has to go around the port mark without taking extra distance).
Are you trying to suggest something else?
Mike
Well, I certainly dont think the rules are simple and clear. there are way to many and you need to be a sailing lawyer to have 100% control on them. For somebody new to the sport, they are bewildering (I still remember how I had to work to acquire an understanding of the rules when I began sailing)
That would depend on the game you want to play of course. But the tactics applied are applied becouse the rules open for it, not becouse it is an inherent part of sailing. Almost a theological/evolutional question of course, but a part I definately would like to see changed for what I think is better for our sport.
Check the definition of
mark room
.
Scooby, I did, that's what led me to my conclusion (port inside has to go around the port mark without taking extra distance).
Are you trying to suggest something else?
Mike
YES, The definition is
Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then too to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark room does not include room to tack.....
No mention of anything but proper course; we should all know that proper course is the course we would sail to finish quickest etc...; we also should know that this in wide and out tight.
Seamanship rounding is no longer part of the definition of the
mark room
/
room
concept and so we can make a tactical rounding WITHIN the bounds of the proper course limitations.
Thus we cannot use mark room to sail someone off the side of the course, but we do have the ability to make a tactical rounding.
Thanks for clarifying your interpretation, Scooby.
To make sure I understand, I will sum up what I think you're saying (as simply as possible to help everyone understand):
Inside boat at starboard gate mark (on starboard tack, naturally): All the rights to sail to China before gybing for the mark.
Inside boat at port gate mark (on port tack): Not the right-of-way boat, but if room can be given, rights to sail a tactical rounding around the mark.
First, I hope I have summarized this correctly.
Second, I'd be very interested to ask Dave Perry why he said the change to the new mark room rule is not a game-changer. Since port was limited to seamanlike before, changing to tactical now would certainly seem to be a game-changer.
Mike
Well, I certainly dont think the rules are simple and clear. there are way to many and you need to be a sailing lawyer to have 100% control on them. For somebody new to the sport, they are bewildering (I still remember how I had to work to acquire an understanding of the rules when I began sailing)
Rolf, you are so right. I participated in my first F18-regatta last year, and promptly had a crash. Furthermore, participants of the regatta as well as experienced sailors I described the situation to afterwards had different opinions whose fault it was. As a newbie I accepted being the bad guy and paid.
I think regattas are fun, but I am really frightend to participate in another one. I agree with Gilo and would wish to see the different situations in form of diagrams!
Yes. But it could be interesting as the stbd boat at some point will be claiming mark room and may not claim p-s; they might need mark room to gybe to then round the mark and how much mark room do they need to gybe in?
I'd wager you can sail them to China as long as you do not claim to want mark room; Reading the definition, as soon as you claim mark room you have a burden of proper course, and so this DOES change the game, as in my opinion, you may be forced to gybe to forful your proper course obligation.
(I would be VERY interested in a judges opinion)
First, I hope I have summarized this correctly.
Second, I'd be very interested to ask Dave Perry why he said the change to the new mark room rule is not a game-changer. Since port was limited to seamanlike before, changing to tactical now would certainly seem to be a game-changer.
Mike
Not really(for this bit), just gives port a little more room to make a proper rounding.
Please let me know what Dave perry thinks. I've been thinking long and hard about this one.....
add another nail to the coffin...