racing with both monohulls and multihulls

I think the monohull group has to feel the need. Cats weren't really welcome in my group for many years. Then membership started to drop, so they became more accepting to make up lost revenue.

If they want it to happen, it isn't a problem. Until then you're wasting your time.

My advice is to smoke out the real objection, the angle thing sounds bogus to me.

Specifically, they probably haven't considered two "A" marks. That, along with separate starts should cure any problems.

In my experience it is rather the cats that will have problems with the tacking angles of the mono's. Typically they outpoint you on the start line and they can luff you up beyond comparison there. Also at the bottom mark the mono's sail very deep and nearly always achieve a inside overlap at the bottom mark. Most often because a catmaran is coming from behind and hardly has any rights that way. In addition the two groups seperate from each other pretty quickly with the cats going wide and the mono's going high and deep. The only issue I ever saw arise was at the top mark were typcially the monos try a port approach to the A-mark alot more often. In cat sailing this is a big no-no because you hardly ever can stay clear and get in. The mono's feel, for some reason, that they can and always misjudge the speed of a catamaran.

Combined fleets (the few times I did them) were actually alot of fun. It is amazing to see some mono's getting really good vmg and from the other perspective (the mono one) it is unbelievable how the cats pass the other boats.

Best advice for a cat in a mixed fleet is to just sail around a mono is any way you can (windward or leeward, doesn't matter) and get as quickly as possible to the clear air on the other side. If you have to bear down and arc around a mono, then just do it. You loose less time then when trying to maintain your optimal course and speed.

Wouter

We race on mono-hull courses from time to time. Historically, we've had little respect on the course because, as a group, we are believed to be only interested in going fast and know very little about the racing rules of sailing. We've changed a good bit of that belief and having larger fleets intertwined in the local sailing clubs (F18HT, F18, A cats, etc.) and having very refined boats on the line has helped overcome this image.

It's painful but the cat's should probably start first. This way you don't have to go blazing through the monohull fleet before they get to A and the monohulls can go around the course at least once before having to deal with the multis. A second, further away A pin for the cats is also a good idea. If the race committee is committed to supporting the multihull fleet, a split start and finish line would be a great advantage because it would allow them to start you guys in another race before everyone has finished. Otherwise you end up waiting around a LONG time.

Most of any mono vs. multi issues I've had have been at C mark and I think the problems I've experienced (monohulls not willing to give me the room I'm entitled to at a mark) I attribute to their feeling like they shouldn't have to yield to such a low life, speed freak, rule-not-knowing race boat (mine). Lately, they watch us have some very tight F18 racing and I think they've begun to understand how competitive and technical we are. It just takes some time to get past any stigmas.

We have shared most of our race-training with monos. When we started sailing (cats) the club was dying, so another boat in the wednesday night races was welcome even if it was a raft made up of two pontoons.

Having a separate start is a good way to avoid the worst problems. Monos approach the line from further away than cats do and will luff you into irons the last few meters unless you have made a hole to dive into.
On the course, the ugly situations come while going downwind. Monos generally go a lot deeper, and are poor at keeping watch to their leeward. This is generally where a cat under spi or going wild downwind will come zipping in. You can never assume they have seen you, and even if you shout at them they need some time to jibe or slow down. Going up is not an option for them (they can, but are bloody stiff necked about it, and they need time to avoid breaking stuff if you take them too high).
I dont agree with Wouter that they often have rights over you. With the different angles cats and monos sails downwind, it's my experience that the cat most often will have established an overlap a long way out and will have luffing rights when the boats get close (assuming the cats are overtaking the monos of course. Please correct me if my interpretation of the rules are wrong). The funniest part is when some old-timer go hailing "mast abeam". Then we know it's time to jibe away..

Upwind there are seldom conflicts, just take care to not get in a position where you are a good luffing target (the stupid ones sometimes try to luff you, and loose time that way). You will not be around long enough to use tactical measures like backwinding on them. Just get by them no matter how, and if you go close to leeward, ride the lift in front of their bow if you dare to.

Keeping away from them during rundings is a good idea. Those boats are not very manouverable, and sometimes the crew loose control on them. "It doesn't matter where you go, as long as you go there fast" is a good rule, if it's crowded in the roundings (or look for the pinwheel effect and "slow down to win" as Rick likes to say). Remember that they will go high just after rounding the leeward mark, so be fast if they are to leeward of you.

When sharing the course with monohulls, we never assume they have seen us and never assume they will respect our right of way. This has proven to be wise time over time. I dont think they ever will learn how fast cats move in a decent wind.

Having a W/L course for the monos, and a triangle course with W/L for the cats is my preferred layout when sharing the course. Eventually, put the windward mark longer up.

I think Pete has it right. Find the real reason why they dont want to run races for you, and work on that. There is a lot of prejudices about multihulls, not to speak about beachcats among some monohullers. We are accepted in our small club now, after 6 years of attending all social, sailing events, volunteer work on the club house/area and holding office for the club. But they still dont understand why we prefer to zip around on a "childrens boat" like a Tornado instead of getting a proper boat. We just laugh at them and let them know that they dont understand what they are missing out on.

Clear Lake Racing, Houston/Clear Lake, TX does this: they start at same place and are sent on different course.

While I was heavily critized for the courses at the Tradewinds, they certainly worked.
Two weather marks, two reaching marks and two leeward marks. Multis on the outside course, monos on the inside course.
That way they also finish near the same time to get in more races.

When I first started racing there was ONLY mixed fleets. And they always started the cats last. That meant we had to sail through the fleet.
One of our Shark Cat guys was reaching over a Highlander and the guy started to luff him. Our cat guy shouted at him,

If you don't struggle, I will do it fast!

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At Sandusky Sailing Club the Thistle Fleet was huge. We only had 12 Sharks there at the time. The head Thistle guy was extremely biased and told me we could never out point a Thistle. In reply I simply said that I didn't want to go that slow.
But, a week or so later at a fun race, they started us all together. This Thistle guy started a boat length ahead of me and right at the RC boat. I was able to outpoint him and drove over him on the way to the A Mark.
I was grinning.., he was frowning.

Mixed company can be fun.., try it.
Rick

Contact Buddy Brown. He has been doing it for over 20 years with the Wed nights.

Doug

http://www.clearlakeracing.com/

All good thoughts, thanks

The problem with our situation is that we have permanently set racing marks out a couple of miles and just set the start to the wind. This means that making a separate course would not be that easy.

The other thing is that we (the catamarans) are not racing with spinnakers, so that will make a difference downwind.

It seems like if we started 10 min early it should not be a problem.

Matt

I have been invited several times to enter a sled race but have declined after seeing how slow these particular sailors respond to the speed of my boats. In 1979 I entered an "all come" event which turned out to be nothing but frustration. After 2 sleds almost pinched me at the line [intentionally]; we completed the course and went sailing the rest of the day. When we came into the beach we were told we were disqualifyed due to improper handicap. I did't bother to ask why but was informed that the handicap was reworked three times to be more "fair" to everyone...

thom

On the Chesapeake Bay, We race with CBYRA and handle starts both ways.

The races are usually 3 miles or longer around fixed govt marks. The course is the same for all boats.

For the PSA overnight Race of 40 miles, Beach Cats start last and finish well ahead of the mono's.

For the West River Twilight Race, We are the first start (assuming we get the fleet out to the start line in time)

For the 165 boat NASS 35 mile Race to Oxford, we are the fastest boats on the course and start last behind the PHRF A0 and Crusing Multihulls.

For the Race Back, We start in the middle of the fleet off of Tred Avon Yacht club for a 20 mile back in forth in the Choptank river and out o the Bay to Poplar Island.

In light air... you just need to clear your air... Not easy with lots of boats out there. Stay on the weather hip of the fleet. In breeze... you pass the mono's so quickly that it's not that much of an issue upwind. If you are double trapped.. you can play the puff's to climb above any monohull out there (Nevertheless, they stil believe that cat's don't go to weather)

Downwind... you will have to zig and zag through the parade of mono's running dead down wind. You are windward and overtaking so you have to thread the needle through several boats knowing that you don't have a lot of options for bearing off and the mono chutes throw up a big wind shadow. This is much easier to do without a chute up. Usually you just have to cross the fleet once... because for the next cross you will be far ahead.

By all means, make an effort to make sure your guys know the CURRENT rules, discuss the likely crossing situations a head of time, AND exercise some common sense and graciousness.

It goes along way, when you try to do the race the next year.

Mark

One final point.

Racing the monohulls will never work out. A single number rating system such as PHRF cannot handle the dramatic performance changes of a Cat fairly.

The PHRF boats complain about the Melges amd Henderson 30 ratings for similar reasons... They are able to race the rest of the mono's but the old adage of horses for courses still holds. All handicap ratings work well when you are racing similar boats together and simply need to tip the balance a little to favor the slightly slower boats.

I don't think ANYONE wants to start the mono's and beachcats together.. boat mass and mast height are working against any cat on that starting line. If they insist... Please demand a LONG line so you can minimize the mismatch on the start line.

Mark

If you look at the USSailing web site they have a Portsmouth/PHRF converson table. My Hobie 16 converts to PHRF 127.

I unofficially raced my local sailing club's pursuit race and based on that rating I started between a J100 and Soverel 39.

I would reckon that the spin boats would go heads up with some of the Farrier Tri's.

Just about all our club racing is done with a mix of yachts, dinghies and cats. We have separate starts - fast yacht (everything from Mumm 36 to Bendytoy 28), Hunter 707 sports boats, slow yachts (and some are very slow yachts..), dinghies (mainly Lasers and Blazes these days) and then the proper boats (Hurricanes, Stealths, Darts). We use fixed marks and the yacht courses will tend to be much longer than the dinghy/cat ones but we will often share the same water with them. It isn't usually a problem but you do have to be wary of yotties who underestimate our speed sometimes. On the whole they're used to us and most know what to expect.

The only time I've been worried about racing on the same water as monowobbles was a regatta where a big wind shift meant that the cats could bear away at the hitch mark and point straight at the bottom mark. Unfortunately there were about 80 dinghies trying to sail triangles in the way. And it was blowing F5...

Has anyone done a Bermuda start system? They tack on the handicap at the front (or best they can). I once waited 1 hour and 45 minutes for a three hour race (counting my starting time). I was quite toasted before we left the dock.

Needless to say, I crossed the first leaner about a half mile to finish.
t

Tom-
They used to have a distance race in North Carolina where they did this- Started all the cats after all the monos had left. The first time I did the race on my 18 square meter I beat the Committee boat (a huge Hatteras motoryacht) to the finish marker and just sort of sat there waiting for them. They didn't believe that I was actually in the race at first, but since I had passed every other boat in the race I had plenty of witnesses!
Having sailed in many "mixed" fleets I agree with almost everything said here- I always try to be gracious and stay out of their way- it helps to have sailed/skippered/crewed on some monos so you can relate to what they are going through and they're thinking. To me the biggest issue is the huge speed difference, especially in a puff- most mono guys are used to scanning slowly for approaching boats and they judge passing/crossing encounters based on their experience (which is usually other monos) and so can be extremely surprised when you just suddenly "show up" on their hip/quarter/whatever. I definitely "drive defensively" when sailing with monos- Never plan to get too close to them as they may suddenly tack just as you are about to pass to windward or gybe just are you are planning to go by.
I personally enjoy starting dead last, sailing through the entire fleet of monos (to weather upwind!) and finishing before any of them. The only downside is then waiting to start again. Agree with Mark about "horses for courses"- there is a "come all" race in Shreveport I have attended a number of times- in the typically light air the Thistles and MC scows have a clear advantage but one year the wind blew well and the top 5 boats were all cats - even on handicap!!

Kirt

Our Friday night series on Lake Washington in Seattle has both. We have five starts, with the multihulls starting last. It is a six mile triangle, usually run in light 5 to 10 mph winds. But, when it gets to 15 and over, it is fun to fly by the leaders, even after a giving a 20 minutes head start. They do have PHRF ratings for all, including the multihulls, but do not score us in the overall. The fleet includes a wide range from Cal 21's to 50ft and over Maxis.

Lots of fun for all. Including the video of the event at the bar in Anthony's, the sponsor, after the race.

Caleb Tarleton

All of the posts on this thread have great info. I've convinenced the two YCs on Maui to have multihull starts. I won't find out until the first race on where we'll start. They're lucky if the get four leaners. I'm expecting at least two F-27s plus my H 20.

I'm not sure I'd keep using the term "learner", they might think it's pejorative!

I'm not afraid of anything I can out run.

I race in a mix of monohulls and multihulls more often than not. It doesn't really seem to be much of a problem. Sailors (especially thistles and isotopes) have simply learned that it doesn't pay to get caught up dueling with a boat in a different fleet. Generally speaking, you're much better off sailing away from a confrontation, even if you have right-of-way.

Most of my racing is around drop-marks, and race committee often starts multihulls first (so they get out and away from the monohulls) and frequently send the multi's an extra lap (trying to even out the racing time). Yes, the different boats do interact on the course, but that's just life. I have occasionally heard members of one fleet griping about having to avoid other fleet boats, but that's just sour grapes. Every boat (no matter what type) is entitled to be there and everybody has to abide by the same rules. If I don't like sailing with other boats, that's my problem, not theirs.

Most inter-fleet enounters seem to take place at the leeward mark -- you just have to take care not to get pinned under a boat that doesn't round up as fast as you want. One of the clubs I sail with used to have a separate leeward mark for catamarans. We did away with that, though, so that we could report finish data to US Sailing for the Portsmouth Handicap. We've been racing that way for two years now without any real problem.

Regards,
Eric

Last year, the Long Beach Yacht Club http://LBYC.org started the R33 catamarans with the PHRF A fleet. It was great racing with a handful of the fastest racing monohulls in Southern California. Typically, an upwind-downwind course would favor the monohulls, but throw in a reach and the R33 catamarans could do much better. All in all, it was very fun.

John Papa
http://SailFast.us

We have integrated with the monohull fleets fairly well, but my advice would be having at the very least, a different A mark. A different course would be preferable, and certainly never race DPN/PRHF conversion. If you are easing your club into cats, do it slowly, they are just plain different from us in logic and philosophy.
Another thought is to have an "Adopt a monhull skipper day" and let them race with you. Swap boats occasionally in your local races. Crew for them. Have them crew for you. All these thngs will keep the cats in a good light with the monohullers, and unfortunately with all the beaches going private, we need them. But conversley, they need the numbers, and that would be us.

One more reason why I thank God I'm in a socialist country; all beaches are state property overhere and open to the general public. I can walk from north to south without trespassing.

Wouter

I also have the impression that mast-up storage at yacht/sailing clubs are way easier to find in Europe?

Her in Norway, there is a general building prohibition within 200 meters from the sea, just to keep it accessible. Not strictly enforced, but still very easy to get to the sea. If you are lucky enough to own a private beach, you can still not deny public access to it, unless it is a major infringement on your privacy (house needs to be withing 200meters of the beach) and you are willing to go trough a civil court.
But, generally the launching ramp at the clubs are much better and have safer storage/parking than a public beach.

This must be better for most than having beaches 'developed' and access restriced.

Btw: Wouter, you do know that our american friends have the impression that socialism is the same as communism? Which it is not, and that we have right wing politicians just as badass as their GOP's over here..

Wouter/Rolf:

You guys are gonna' love this! The beach here is public property too, up to the "mean" high tide line! That means there is only a "public" beach when the tide is out! Also, there is very little access; places to park your car, use the restroom, etc. To make matters worse, there are no building set-backs of any consequence to the public, except in theory! In practice, if you have the money, you can build all the way to the mean high tide line.

I expect all sorts of raging, screaming remonstrations that this just isn't so! In reality, it is exactly so! I invite you to come see for yourselves, you can bunk in at my place!

I have been sailing with monohulls In the Wed Nights on Clear Lake for 9 years now and periodically at Houston Yacht Club for about 10-11 years. In general it has been fun and worth the effort to get to know the "main stream" sailors.

In general the problems have been boats that don't see you, the Mark roundings and when the winds demand you go thriough the middle of the course or through spinnaker boat "line" downwind. For boats that don't see you, you just have to watch. For the marks, just stay clear and stay out of wind shadows. It's just not worth the effort to fight it out. Also in heavy air, give spinnaker boats plenty of room at the leeward mark. You do not want to be anywhere near them if they can't get the spinnaker down. Downwind through the middle of the course, be very careful. Wild Thinging a Tornado or an A-Class through the spinnaker boat line is a cool and scary experience.

If you have the chance, start with the Lasers. Sharing a start line with a bunch of Olympic Wannabes gives you some good experience. Also their tacking upwind in light air can teach you some things.

You will learn some new techniques.

"scrape" - use the line of monohulls to scrape your opponents off.

Shadow - Sucker your opponent into a big boat's wind shadow

Slam Dunk - use your wind shadow to induce a "death roll" in the Laser that headed you up at the start.

Carl

One more reason why I thank God I'm in a socialist country; all beaches are state property overhere and open to the general public. I can walk from north to south without trespassing.

Wouter

Same deal in Hawaii, a third world country with ammenities. The hotels that have walled off the beaches have to provide access to the beaches and, in some cases, also have to provide free parking. Now if we could get them to build in a path wide enough to move a cat in on beach wheels...

what is absolutely effing remarkable Wouter is that not only do I know the difference between socialism and communism, but its not actually private ownership of the land that restricts beach access. Its the local city and county ordinances that are in place that don't allow boats OF ANY TYPE to be launched from the beach. This is to prevent the stanard domestic variety southern redneck from driving his big rig loaded down with jetskis on the beach and starting his own little game of "hit the innocent swimmer".

In fact, everytime I've either
A) Asked permission from a private landowner to use his/her property or
B) Rented a room (aka a hotel or resort) from the landowner

I've had absolutely zero problems launching from the beach. We may be a litigous society, but as long as you're careful, respectful of the land owners, and leave things the way they were before you got there, stuff is just fine around here.

So you see, in the grand scheme of things, at least ancedotally, its not private ownership of land that has restricted beach access, its actually been the babysitting government that has made our lives inconvenient because of the actions of the few inconsiderate and stupid amongst us.

I'm glad you live in a socialist utopia over there. Keep it over there and we wont have any problems ok?

It gets a little expensive to rent a motel room each time I want to go sailing, which is why I'm sailing less. And, many motels won't accept a trailer because it takes too much room.

Also, we are much more crowded here in Florida, than N.C. I would imagine.

Unfortunately, with so many people moving from Florida to the Carolinas, you may come around to my point of view sooner than you think.

To make matters worse, we have a very nice causeway here, much like Dunedin, but it is illegal to launch there because of the jet-ski problem.