A recent trend is for major beach cat regattas to require a show of proof of at least 100,000 in liability insurance coverage. (It's rarely checked and it's not like you could validate some one's proof of insurance anyway)
However, my local CBYRA races and major Championships like the Acura Key West Race Week don't require any proof of insurance.
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Section 14 details responsibility... (It's clearly the skipper's total responsibility)
Why do beach cat organizing authorities decide they want to have something to say on insurance liability when the issue is between two private parties (with or without their insurance companies)
Seems to me that society has a pretty elaborate civil system to handle this dispute.... Hell you can even get a shot on Judge Judy's show if you want.
It can't be the price of the boat.... the real nightmare is the financial cost of a serious personal injury that you would be liable for ... That would pertain to all skippers, laser on up!
Anyone have a plausible reason?
I assert that it sounds like a good thing to require this liability proof but we organizers are making a big mistake. (We now include the organizing authority into the dispute if we don't do this properly)
I assert that there is a good reason that the pro's running regattas don't ask for proof of liability!
My guess, the major championship organizers have their own insurance and assume they will be sued regardless of whether the racers have insurance. They have covered their butt, and assume the racers should do the same but leave it up to them.
I will always argue for proof of insurance at our regattas. Two years ago we made it mandatory, and it did force a few sailors to get insurance the days before the regatta that did not have it. Then on Friday night a squall came through and tossed a number of boats. One of the owners whose brand new boat was tossed got insurance the day before, and yes he was really happy he got it.
I also think its a good idea to require skippers to have liability insurance in case they do run someone over coming to or leaving the beach. At our past ocean regattas I have seen several instances were a catsailor almost hit a swimmer while trying to navigate the surf. Sailors should have liability insurance for that slim chance that they accidentally hit someone. As an organizer, I think it partly your responsibility to make sure they have it.
I will always argue for proof of insurance at our regattas. Two years ago we made it mandatory, and it did force a few sailors to get insurance the days before the regatta that did not have it. Then on Friday night a squall came through and tossed a number of boats. One of the owners whose brand new boat was tossed got insurance the day before, and yes he was really happy he got it.
Yes he was... <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" /> It was insured with Progressive, within a week I had a brand new hull and the boat was ready to go!
Brian,
I still don't get why you the organizer feel the need to muck around in this can of worms. How can you be
SURE THEY HAVE IT
How can you validate their certificate... they could photoshop one in minutes. In this day an age their insurance company could have folded last week. What good comes of it for the OA?
I agree, I want everyone to have liability insurance at the events I attend... BUT as an OA... I don't want any responsibility for it.
Liability is a legal matter. Sailboat racing is a game defined by the Racing rules,Prescriptions, SI's and NOR ... Don't mix the game with the legal liability crap. The powers that be have worked really hard to keep the two things well apart.
Your good intention opens the door for lots of trouble.
If the cat sailor hits the swimmer...Seems to me it's his problem... not the regatta chair's.
What happens if the cat sailor lied and has no insurance and no assets. If I am the swimmer... I come after you in court because YOU did not verify that he had insurance and he would not have been out there if you had done your job as you said you would. You have some financial liability for my injury. It doesn't matter if the swimmer wins or looses on the merits... You opened the door to my claim and now you are in court (your time, your lawyer, your stress, your $$$ etc etc).
I assert that most YC's and the big regattas don't want to get involved in this stuff and leave it up to individual captain's responsibility to have liability insurance.
See the NOR for Key West... They use the word responsibility many many times.... never liability.
The prescriptions to the racing rules define responsibility... not liability and are very clear they don't speak to matters of liability keeping it very clear that the game rules and participants do not settle a legal issue.
That's for the civil courts.
Your best of intention puts the innocent Organizing Authority in the middle of a legal xxx contest. Not to mention... your Org Authority Regatta liability insurance coverage is a big pot of money to go after (Standard is a million bucks). Why offer up the target?
Every event I have been to in the UK, we are asked to Sign that we have insurance, BUT it is never checked....
Why, well the reasons I have been told is that if someone checks that you have insurance, then it is THEIR call to say if it is
a, Valid
b, appropiate
c, Up-to-date
d, real
If you do not ask for proof, the responsibility for the provision and validity lies with the person signing that they HAVE insurance.
I have been to ONE EU regatta (30 years ago) that required us to present our insurance documents, but none since.
Only Round Texel and one other race actually checks if you have insurance.
Not sure what the legal reason is but it may be part of the conditions from the organising regatta's insurance policy.
Not sure what the legal reason is but it may be part of the conditions from the organising regatta's insurance policy.
I could mock up something that looked official quite easily on my PC; if inspected(and approved), would this transfer liability to the organisation?
Not sure what the legal reason is but it may be part of the conditions from the organising regatta's insurance policy.
I could mock up something that looked official quite easily on my PC; if inspected(and approved), would this transfer liability to the organisation?
I believe that that would technically be considered fraud on your part.
Brian, you know I'm right there with you on the insurance thing, but Mark is making sense to me. After having to play the heavy at the Area Qualifiers that is a part of the job I'd like to see go away. After 6 months of emails, forum posts, and publishing the NOR and SI's on the host website well in advance people were still without the proper documentation then you're faced with that decision and we all know which way it goes.
At this point I'm convinced that if something goes down and it goes to the lawyers EVERYONE will be on the hook regardless of the documentation and insurance is just a buffer.
I still feel like we are guessing when it comes to this issue. Melbourne Yacht Club got sued, do you know what they require for their regatta's and what the release wording is? Have they changed the wording for their release?
I'd like to point out at last years Alter Cup they required insurance documentation and they retained a copy during the event. If we do continue to require proof of insurance then we should go the next step and require a copy. Also, you and I are no longer fleet officers so now all we have to do is sail aint it cool!
The organizer states it is required... they have now taken basic
reasonable
steps toward governing an event that has coverage in the event of a claim. Even though they can be named a defendant still... they have taken reasonable steps.. this could sway a judge or jury they have liability in a lawsuit.
Similar to renting a car, they check to see you have a license, but don't run the license to verify it is in effect.
if they don't take these
steps
... they have not taken reasonable responsibility and probably have more liability in any claims.
Matt, are you out there?
I don't know the specific reason, but proof of insurance is collected and copies maintained at Hobie NAs. We require it in a lot of Hobie SIs for
lower
events, but it is rarely (if ever) verified. I believe that we use the same regatta insurance for these events as all points regattas, etc.
If I had to guess (which I hate doing), I would say it's enforced at the international events (NAs) to be sure that the foreign guests at these events have coverage that is appropriate for the venue (which is not always in the US).
Mike
I really think organizers should require proof of insurance. The real problem is that people do forget it and that is a hard call on the RC's part as to what to do. I think if they signed something saying they had it in case they forgot it I would be ok with it.
The real reason in my mind is to protect the other competitors from some jerk that would do damage to someones boat and then not pay to cover the damages. I know this happened to a friend of mine a long time ago. My friend had simple liability coverage on his boat. He was at a major regatta and got cut in two by a guy from the Virgin Islands. This guy was found at fault for a Port/Starboard protest hearing. He disappeared back to the VI and was never seen again. My friend was out the full cost of his boat - about 8K back then.
My coverage has certainly been worth it. Bob Curry can attest to that. <img src="<>/frown.gif" alt="frown" title="frown" height="15" width="15" />
I think it was pointed out in an earlier post that the regatta organizer's insurance REQUIRES that all participants carry their own insurance.
I have not read US Sailing's regatta liabiltiy policy in a few years, so someone who has a policy currently should probably check that (or call their agent).
If the organizer's coverage requires the participants to carry coverage, then the organizer's policy should outline what is
acceptable
in terms of relieving the organizer of negligence.
Maybe all they need to do is state that insurance is required in the SI.
Maybe the participant has to affirm that they have coverage on the entry form (by their signature)
Maybe they need a copy of the certificate of insurance
Maybe they need a carrier name and policy number, and have to individually verify (geeze, I hope not - that's waay to much work)
Andrew
Why don't the YC's with valuable property require proof of insurance..... Your due diligence argument should apply to them in spades.... My answer...their lawyers told them
Don't do it.... Don't undercut the responsibilities of the skipper.
You wrote
steps
... they have not taken reasonable responsibility and probably have more liability in any claims.
Why again would you want to take ANY responsibility from the skipper and place it on the OA and their staff?
I guess you could carry that argument further. If a YC doesn't really have any assets, why bother with insurance in the first place? It gives personal injury attorneys a reason to sue, right?
I personally don't agree with that comment, but I've had many people say it....
Dave and Mike Hill,
I think that the practice that Scooby point's to is the right way to go!
I don't have a problem with a statement that the skippers sign stating...
I certify that I have 100,000 in liability insurance.
(This is the way we used to run things BTW)
If the skipper lies and events come back to bite them... the civil courts will resolve it.
From the sailing side of things... The sport would ban the skipper from future racing. All of the sailing rules are grounded in Corinthian ideals where you self police the game of sailboat racing.
Having this explicit liability agreement on your registration form is not essential but it is a good way to highlight the importance and EXPECTATION of liability insurance.
For example, the huge Chi to Mac race has an enormous list of required gear.... Most of it would be quite useful to save your life as a matter of fact. The OA does not certify that your boat has all of the gear before you race...You agreed to race with all of the gear. What they do is spot check the top boats and a few others in the class for a couple of random items. If you cheated... they toss you.
The game of sailing deals with cheaters by DSQ.
The Coast Guard, State, Federal Law deal with safety, safety gear and liability issues.
Okay insurance boy... I called our rep at Chubb (USSailing Insurance) the last time this issue was brought to a head. There response was yes, the participants are required to carry insurance. I also took that to mean that if you allowed someone to sail without insurance then that was Chubb's out to deny a claim.
That is what spooks me! So, we are either caught by assuming the responsibility of checking insurance or changing the wording and putting the responsibility on the competitor and run the risk of being denied when a claim is filed.
I hate this part of the sport (yes, more than sailing open), it really sucks all the fun out of the game!
Is it time to leave for the Keys yet!!!!?
Thanks for that insight, Ding.
Yes, insurance favorite word is EXCLUDE. It's just above the word PREMIUM in their list of favorites.... <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
THATS IT! I AM CALLING MATLOCK, PERRY MASON and Judge WAPNER TO SETTLE THIS!
So let me get this straight.
1) The OA's insurance company requires that the participants carry and prove insurance.
2) In the case of an
event on the water
, the participants insurance is liable.
What then is the risk to the OA's insurance company? Is it there
just in case
the participant's insurance company goes after the OA with lawyers?
Water
Neither Gowrie Barden (USSA insurance) or the David Agency (formerly Meyers Briggs) require individual liability insurance as a pre condition for the OA to purchase regatta liability insurance.
Property owners, may require individual insurance to use their property. Many YC's or marina's will require liability coverage as a condition for keeping your property on their property.
Property owners often require the OA to insure their property for booze, and other liability for the event. That insurance is separate (On the Beach Insurance) and costs you another 400 plus 50 (or so) to name the property owner.
I have never seen a requirement for an individual to have liability coverage.
International events are different. Many examples of one competitor with or without insurance telling the other to get lost (see Mike Hill's story). Events like OCR require you to hand in a zerox of your liability coverage. The USSA OD individual insurance program was modeled on the coverage that the Tornado Olympic guys needed for international events. (it includes boat charters, chartering,)
If you want to do the insurance proof... I think you have to go all the way and collect a copy of the proof of insurance.
Note added.
Dave, that is not the story I got from Chubb.. or David. This was three years ago. Again. If were true... almost every YC would require racers to show proof of insurance... Fact of the matter... all of the CBYRA YC's on the bay DO NOT MENTION LIABILITY INSURANCE nor does the Key West RW NOR.
Gawd, I feel like we are in the same spot as that other issue we were discussing...
Not sure what you mean here. The only way to get banned that I'm aware of is by US SAILING / ISAF. I doubt they would do that over insurance.
If you really want to know what your OA coverage is good for, try banning someone from events. The lawyers will line up for that one.
Mike
Mike
Yes, the YC or OA would petition USSA to ban the individual from all events for sportsmanship. (Time consuming and a PIA).
How else would you run the game?
Of course we could always use the instant justice in the sand solution favored by many for racing violations. In this instance... you would get about 10 fleet members with bats and educate the S.O.B. This is an entirely new game though.
Personally, I choose plan A.... but no doubt... Plan B is fast and a reasonable deterrent to the S.O.B and every body else.
I guess my point is that banning people is a very, very extreme case, and while negligence may be ugly, it may not get someone banned.
It may be hard to prove that someone intended to be fraudulent to the point that they should be banned.
The bats would be cheaper and probably more effective. Wave them around, just don't actually use them. Of course, you'll probably just get sued for making someone feel uncomfortable... and yes, the lawyers would go after Louisville Slugger, and maybe the poor bastard who owned the ash forest...
Mike
As a race organizer, you can reject any entry for any reason, or even no reason, partcularly if you state it in the NOR. Even the Rules of Racing state that you can cancel or exclude a competitor so long as you do it before the start and state the reason.
If you really want to know what your OA coverage is good for, try banning someone from events. The lawyers will line up for that one.
Mike
You CAN, does not equal, this is a good idea.
This has gotten YCs on the banned list...
Mike
I guess some current policy holder needs to confirm one way or another.
I think most YC don't have to ask about insurance because the boats are bigger (over 16') and are registered (which requires proof of insurance). ??
I think most YC don't have to ask about insurance because the boats are bigger (over 16') and are registered (which requires proof of insurance). ??
I have never heard of registration requiring proof of insurance.
Alter Cup Area D South Eliminations
Kelly Park River Regatta
That's just two.