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7. Entrants will be weighed prior to the start, safety equipment will be verified, and
sails will be officially measured and marked by Race Officials. Factory hull numbers
and rating certificates may be required. Proof of liability insurance will be required,
with a copy submitted with registration. Sailing instructions will be available online
shortly after advanced registration.
Kelly Park River Regatta
That's just two.
I mean registration of boats, i.e. licensing!
You are thinking about cars. Boats are different. In MD... it's all about the motor for registration purposes.
do you think the Opti parent does not have liability coverage on his kid's Opti?
Size has nothing to do with liability. YC's don't ask about this insurance coverage stuff because it's a nightmare of paperwork and NOT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY.
I'm not positive, but the GYC regattas may require proof of insurance. It's a requirement of membership.
Membership in the club yes!...
The question here is
Is it a requirement for guests to race
and are you asked to state that you have 100K liability insurance... or are you asked to present proof of insurance.
Think of the liability insurance requirement as part of the game versus a pre-requisite that you must prove in order to participate in the game. If you make it a pre requisite... you better do it properly.
I would certainly agree with that statement. If you're going to do it, you'd be best served by not going 1/2 a**, because that's the sure way to lose....
Yes I agree.
So far, the only reason that I have heard of for requiring proof of insurance is for regattas with international competitors because they can leave the country and not be touched.
Even so, I personally know of a very famous Swedish Olympic medalist who skipped out of a high speed port starboard crunch and refused to pay damages. So even though he had liability coverage... it doesn't mean that you will be covered. S had to use his own insurance and pay the 800 dollar deductible...
Even getting a copy of someone insurance doesnt mean they still have it. Theres nothing stopping someone from getting a policy, paying the premium, and then cancelling it a week later and getting a refund. They still have the piece of paper that says they are insured. Its my understanding that this happens with auto insuance a lot! People get insurance to register their car and then cancel it right after.
Reasoning for requiring insurance is:
1) It is a reminder to those that would normally have gotten insurance and have forgotten, or have simply been too busy.
2) It can be a real benefit when a boat(s) gets damaged on or off the race course.
3) Beachcats are inheriently different than monohulls. We launch and return in areas populated by other people. We have an increased risk for personal liability.
4) It is yet another liability buffer.
Of course its not full proof, but I believe that the vast majority of catsailors I have met are responsible people, and when they say they have insurance, they are being honest about it. I think the majority of catsailors realize insurance is being required because of the benefits to the individual sailors and the event, and not because we like to be a PITA.
We have had two sailors drive their mast up boats on trailers into power lines over the years. No one was hurt and they were good guys who Im sure would not have sued anyone, but their family and relatives? Who knows. Id rather they have insurance just in case.
As for the MYC suit, my understanding (and I very well may be wrong on the details) was that the suit was brought by a sailor who was also a lawyer and it was not over a particular accident, it was more related to a rating and scoring issue. I believe he did eventually lose and it ended up costing everyone a lot of money and time.
At the end of the day, requiring insurance is a relatively simple, inexpensive way, we can add a level of responsibility to our sport while providing some good benefits.
Brian
Most YC's don't require liability insurance
Your point of view is that your club should require it. Ok
The problem is when you require proof to gain entry into the game of racing and don't collect the copy.
If you resolve the issue with a statement on the entry form to the effect of
I certify that I have XXX amount of third party liability insurance.
I suggest this language meets your goals.
You would not open any can of worms and be in line with the EU and not out of line with the YC policy in this country.
Brian... two more questions.
Have you thought through
what you do with the insurance information that you have collected
If two boats have a collision and one of them demands insurance information from the other but is refused by the sailor and he is now standing in front of you as the OA and demanding you turn over the insurance info ... What do you as the OA do?
If you turn over the copy.... do you violate someone's privacy? Do you call the police? Can he sue you for turning over the paper... It's just an amazing snake pit.
What are you going to do with the certs that you collect. File em... Destroy them by shredding, toss em in the dumpster on the way out of the club. Is this really what your OA wants to be doing?
In the case where the OA held a copy of my documentation it was mailed back to me at the end of the event.
Guess we won't know what does or doesn't work until someone get's sued for damages.
Mail the proof of insurance back...
right! that is the only way to deal with the privacy issue. Can you say... total pain in the butt... not to mention expensive!
Put the statement in the registration form. Keep it part of the game of sailing and don't make it more difficult.
You've made some good points but I'm still not convinced your way is the best way.
Anyway, I'm done. It's time for me to pack the truck and head to the Keys... now where did I put that insurance paperwork.
Mark,
We dont collect the insurance forms, we ask to see them and check to see if they are current. Not a big deal at all, very little effort.
I understand the argument that we problably could go ahead and not check for insurance. If I had to bet, Id guess others dont do it mainly because they perceive it to be a hassle and unnecessary.
I think its important not becuase of all the detailed legal reasons, because it can potentially help a fellow catsailor, and I look at the the people I sail with as good friends. It certainly helped Timbo out when his boat was trashed, and seeing one friend get out of a bad situation was worth the effort.
If a little bit of effort on our part helps out one catsailor every few years Id think it would be worth it. Maybe YCs dont look at it that way? Maybe thats why I sail catamarans.
David has a good point: Are we done yet?
Collect proof of insurance, if nothing else at international events.
Hosts of Hobie NAs go through a lot of work to make insurance available in the event someone shows up without (they can pay to play, even just for the week). This is a step above and beyond, in the interest of helping our fellow sailors. They're not allowed on the water without meeting the minimum requirement, and we don't want to send them home without giving them the chance to have insurance to race.
Waivers are probably fine for everything else (sign here to verify that you're inured...).
If someone cancels their insurance, or photoshops something, or lies, or whatever, that's the individual being fraudulent.
Mike
Not sure what the legal reason is but it may be part of the conditions from the organising regatta's insurance policy.
I could mock up something that looked official quite easily on my PC; if inspected(and approved), would this transfer liability to the organisation?
I believe that that would technically be considered fraud on your part.
Agreed, but only if spotted by a hassled person at check in for an event.
My point is that checking the bit of paper adds no value to the process and MAY transfer SOME of the liability.
Someone wrote me and asked if I would chip into this thread. I handle individual boat insurance, and Regatta Liability insurance (for clubs through The David Agency) being the first to ever provide this type of insurance 30 years ago and have lots of experience with injuries and sadly, deaths.
I always find this stuff easier when breaking it down into pieces:
BOAT OWNER
With or without insurance, the Boat Owner is responsible financially for the operation of his or her boat. He or she can be sued for damaging other peoples property (example - hitting a starboard tack boat), or injuring people (crew gets hit in the head with a boom), of a fatality (boat turtles and the crew gets trapped in the rigging). Let's say for anyone of these examples, the court provides an award to the plaintiff for $750,000 (sank a really big boat, made crew a quadraplegic or the crew died). Without insurance, the individual is responsible to come up with that money. They will find their wages attached for many years (possibly their whole life) and have very little take home pay. Now if they elected to buy insurance on their boat, or as a poster showed previously that in many Home, Condo and Apartment Liability Policies, that Liability Insurance is automatically included at no-charge for sailboats under 26' in length, their insurer will pay the loss up to the policy limit. Now, if the individual bought a $100,000 limit, the insurer pays the $100,000 and walks away (they also will pay all of the lawyers bills for the lawsuit previously mentioned in addition to the $100,000). However, the Boat Owners wages will be attached for the remaining $650,000 (think OJ and how the Goldman family continues to chase after any money he has, years after the verdict). While a lawyer is free to correct me, it is my understanding that filing for personal bankruptcy will not erase the attachment of wages for the remainder of your life, they still go after your wages after coming out of bankruptcy.
What does requiring the boat owners to have insurance at an event do for the boat owners in this instance? It just may help them in the event of calamity, but it also provides another layer of bureaucracy where many studies in sailing have shown that we need to break down barriers to the sport, not add barriers to the sport.
For those who have discussed that
proof of insurance
is meaningless, I would disagree. When you call your agent and ask for a certificate of insurance (which is proof that there is insurance coverage), it includes the effective date and expiration date of the policy, the limit, the Boat Owner's name, the isnurer, and a notice that requires the insurance company to notify the Organizing Authority IF the policy is cancelled for any reason (such as the guy just bought it for the certificate of insurance and then turned around and canceled it 24 hours later after he registered for the event, or had stopped paying his or her premium and canceled for failure to pay premium). Could someone photoshop one? Yes. Would it be a violation of the rules? Yes. When discovered could there be a Rule 69 hearing? Yes. And it would be incredibly easy to prove as the agency's name is right there on the certificate and a simple phone call can uncover a photoshop document faster than a New York Minute? Yes.
This is no different than turning short of the mark and continuing in the race in my book.
Enough about the Boat Owner.
THE ORGANIZING AUTHORITY (OA)
By running an event, the OA can be open to be sued, just as much as anyone else around. Of course the OA needs to do something negligent in order to be found guilty. Did they hoist a marks to port flag, and then switch to a marks to starboard flag during the starting sequence? Were there huge crashes at the windward mark, capsizes, turtles, and injuries and death as half the fleet was turning one way, and the other half the other way around the mark? That would be pretty negligent.
Actually what is the most common in claims is simply someone went overboard and died. Whether the OA is negligent or not, we have defended many of these lawsuits in the Regatta Liability insurance program. If the OA does not have insurance, their bank account will be emptied, more than likely they will file for bankruptcy and cease operations permanently. The injured party will not have any other way to squeeze money out of this entity.
If the OA purchases Regatta Liability insurance, their lawyers bill and any judgment, award or settlement can be paid out of this coverage.
CROSS OVER BETWEEN BOAT OWNER AND OA
With or without insurance, both the boat owner and the OA can be sued separately or together for a single accident, which is common. The same thing said before applies, if either one or both does not have insurance, the individual can have their wages attached, the OA more than likely goes bankrupt. But if both have the ability to pay without insurance (maybe large cash reserves at the club, or the boat owner is very wealthy) or if they both have insurance, what occurs is interesting. Sticking with the earlier story, the Jury awards $750,000 and finds both the boat owner and club liable. What occurs next is that the judge determines proportionately the amount each is responsible for. Let's say the example was an overboard with a fatality. The judge may find that the Boat owner is 90% responsible and the OA 10% responsible (maybe the OA watched the whole thing, never stepped in to offer help, or radio'd for professional help, or anything). These judgments are joint and several. What this means is, if one can't pay their share and the other one can, the other one picks up the full amount, regardless what their proportionate shares are!
Why would an OA make everyone have insurance? 1. It protects their insurance from getting stuck with the potential of many claims (if the guy has no insurance and the crew is injured, it will help prevent the OA from getting involved and save the concerns and headaches of the OA having to deal with someone else's negligence that is not theirs to begin with). 2. I have seen many cases where crew have been injured and either no insurance or low limits of insurance have lead to sad situations where the crew is financially distressed for the rest of their lives.
But I admit, I do recommend to OA's not to require insurance of the participants as long as they have Regatta Liability Insurance (through me, as I can not talk about other knock-offs out there, what they require or don't require). Most certainly the coverage I offer does not require anything such as waivers, boat owners to have insurance or any barriers, I like to hear of participation increasing and making things easy for sailors). I see it as a barrier to entrance in the sport. I see it as a headache for the participant to contact their agent, make sure they get the copy forwarded to the OA, the OA needing to check each and create a long-range filing system (lawsuits might take years before they are filed before the OA is even aware of it, and that recordkeeping is now critical since they required it to begin with).
Yes, it is not fair that the OA gets dragged into accidents which are not their responsibility to begin with. Comparing it to all of the planning, and the time consumed trying to make an event good and prosperous, and then after the spotlight has turned off and have to deal with the headaches, it doe not seem fair for the volunteers. This does happen and it shakes the confidence of the volunteers, typically leading to them finding someone else to take over.
So weigh it for yourselves, are the volunteers at your events due some relief from the possible injuries sustained at the events you go to have fun at, and are still dealing with the potential of being in courts, taking depositions, all because some guy at the event didn't buy insurance at all?
Glen,
Thanks for an excellent and informative post. This really helped my understanding of the insurance/liability issues associated with running events (which I do).
Chris.
Thank for the clarifications Glenn, this answers a few other questions that have come up recently
Thank you Glenn for an outstanding description of how the system works.
Much better to have a pro directly address the issues.
Many thanks
The RR of sailing suggest this language in the NOR
21 Insurance
" Each participating boat shall be insured with valid third-party liability insurance with a minimum cover of xxxxx per event or the equivalent.
Mark Schneider
So, what constitutes
Proof of Insurance
???
Real proof would follow this kind of standard
Glenn McCarthy
If you canceled the insurance after your company sends it to the OA.... the company is required to notify the OA. This is the level of proof that you would need as an OA.
Anything less then that is basically a silly attempt to find out if you are honest and a man of your word. The general technique is a visual inspection of a piece of paper you say is accurate, up to date and paid for that you get from your company or create on your own. I prefer to be taken at my word with my signature.
Mind you... Since liability insurance covers YOU and your financial loss its hard to see why you would want to misrepresent it. Its crazy to think that the other people are safer out on the reac course. There is no promise that your liability insurance will pay the other guy if they don't agree you were guilty of something.... they make that call, courts resolve the difference of opinion.
Either a Declaration Page from your policy (comes with the bill) or a Binder (comes from the insurance co. before they issue the policy)
You can also have your insurance agent generate a
Certificate of Insurance
on a standard form. Generally, they'll do that at no charge and fax/e-mail it to whoever needs it.
The certificate is the easiest, and could be e-mailed to whomever requested it... Coming from a licensed agent, the OA could be assured the coverage is from a reputable source...