The Dart 16 weighs much less too.
Its in between the Wave and the Getaway in terms of performance. I was disappointed when I rented the Getaway, way too heavy.
Its in between the Wave and the Getaway in terms of performance. I was disappointed when I rented the Getaway, way too heavy
This coming from a man with a carbon fiber A cat. I have to wonder why you even mentioned you were on a roto-boat when you think they stink so much?
That is like a jet fighter trying a 2-seater Cessna and commenting on it's performance. What can you know about low performance catamarans? You sitting there all high and mighty on your speed demon, looking back at the rest of the World.
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Its in between the Wave and the Getaway in terms of performance. I was disappointed when I rented the Getaway, way too heavy
This coming from a man with a carbon fiber A cat. I have to wonder why you even mentioned you were on a roto-boat when you think they stink so much?
That is like a jet fighter trying a 2-seater Cessna and commenting on it's performance. What can you know about low performance catamarans? You sitting there all high and mighty on your speed demon, looking back at the rest of the World.
<img src=
alt=
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The Dart 16 is not as slow as some people think, sailed singlehanded, it is rated faster than the Dart 18 and the Hobie 16. It points much higher than either of them.
In a force 5, I have seen equal ability crews racing head to head, Dart 16 and 18, both two up. The 16 reached the top mark first because of its pointing ability. The course was triangular - a beat and 2 reaches. The 18 only caught up at the bottom mark and the 16 was ahead again by the top mark.
Tim, The video clips were taken in September on the Friday evening of our Nationals at Lough Derg on the river Shannon.
In a force 5, I have seen equal ability crews racing head to head, Dart 16 and 18, both two up. The 16 reached the top mark first because of its pointing ability. The course was triangular - a beat and 2 reaches. The 18 only caught up at the bottom mark and the 16 was ahead again by the top mark.
AHA! So there is capability of
more kick
than the Getaway in a roto boat. Dart 16 faster than the Hobie 16? Oops, I guess Hobie won't be building a speedy roto model (oh yeah, in 10 years...maybe). So there's NOT a market in the continental US for a boat such as the Dart 16?
Dermot,
With all due respect, but your following statement is not true.
Compare the SCHRS (ISAF) ratings : source www.schrs.com (lower number means faster)
Hobie 16 = 1.16
Dart 18 = 1.18
Dart 18 cat boat (1-up only mainsail) = 1.19
Dart 16 = 1.28
Dart 16 cat boat (1-up only mainsail) = 1.26
Dart 16 spi = 1.25
Wouter
Unfortunatly there is no way to repair a storm damaged getaway. Remember they are made of plastic... <img src=
alt=
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The reason these boats sell well is not because they are made of plastic, it is because they are simple and robust. The reason they are made from plastic is that it is a cheap process, when the boats can be sold in large enough numbers. They can be sold at a similar price to a GRP boat and can therefore be sold at a higher profit. With the big companies profit is important.
The majority of sailors don’t care about performance. And certainly performance doesn’t sell in large numbers. You could make a rotomoulded boat of equal performance to a GRP boat but the complexity required would not make it popular and it wouldn’t sell in large enough quantities to make it financially viable.
As for reparability, they can be repaired, its not as easy as GRP, but you don’t have to do it that often. In fact has anyone ever seen a damaged rotomoulded boat?
So to answer the original question
I think the answer is probably no.
Gareth
With all due respect, but your following statement is not true.
Compare the SCHRS (ISAF) ratings : source www.schrs.com (lower number means faster)
Hobie 16 = 1.16
Dart 18 = 1.18
Dart 18 cat boat (1-up only mainsail) = 1.19
Dart 16 = 1.28
Dart 16 cat boat (1-up only mainsail) = 1.26
Dart 16 spi = 1.25
Wouter
Wouter, Wth All due respect - you missed the Dart 16 Sprint = 1.13. Now this does include a spinnaker, but if you take that out, you get approx. 1.15. Lower number than a Hobie 16.
http:/
Sorry Dermot,
But why are you comparing a Laser 16 sailed singlehanded with mainsail, jib and spi with a doublehanded dart 18 or a singlehanded dart 18 with just the mainsail ?
Wouldn't it be a better measure to compare this Dart 16 rating with a Dart 18 or Hobie 16 that was being sailed in a similar way ? As in singlehanded with jib and spi as well.
Only then will we get a proper feel for how the Laser 16 can be expected to perform.
Wouter
Sorry Dermot,
But why are you comparing a Laser 16 sailed singlehanded with mainsail, jib and spi with a doublehanded dart 18 or a singlehanded dart 18 with just the mainsail ?
Wouldn't it be a better measure to compare this Dart 16 rating with a Dart 18 or Hobie 16 that was being sailed in a similar way ? As in singlehanded with jib and spi as well.
Only then will we get a proper feel for how the Laser 16 can be expected to perform.
Wouter
Wouter, All I said was:
The Dart 16 is not as slow as some people think, sailed singlehanded, it is rated faster than the Dart 18 and the Hobie 16.
I was not including the spinnaker. The SCHRS for the Dart 16 singlehanded with main and Jib was always 1.15.
Basically all I am saying is that even though it is a rotomoulded cat, it can be quite fast.
Why are you calling the Dart 16 a
Laser Cat
That was just the name Laser marketed it under in the US.
Ohh, it is definately the best rotomoulded cat design that I'm aware of. Many times better then the others.
Laser Cat
That was just the name Laser marketed it under in the US.
I don't know. No particular reason. I think in the beginning of this thread I used the name Dart 16 and only after Bills post started calling it laser cat.
Still the SCHRS handicap uses 135 kg for the complete ready to sail boat; With each hull quoted at 48 kg by Laser themself ( http:/
On the website http://www.dart16.com/ they even claim that the alu mast weights only 10 kg !
Texel measurement says the boat ready to sail is 150 kg.
Now I don't know what is right (although I think 150 kg is believable) but if 150 kg is used then Schrs handicap singlehanded no spi comes out at 1.18.
That still makes it the fasterst rotomoulded boat outthere. And it is heaps better looking then the rest.
Wouter
So with the Getaway tipping the scales at 390 pounds (177 kg) and only slightly slower than the Dart 16, I suppose Hobie USA has done as best that could be expected, performance wise. They certainly have found a niche with a stable craft with a high payload capacity. In regards to
the majority of sailors don't care about performance
, seems like a catamaran has to be one of the logical choice if you do care about it, so I'm not ready to sluff it off as not applicable.
Is the material and moulding process such that durability suffers with lighter hulls? Could not lighter and more refined shaped hulls in addition to a larger rig, without the complexities of a high performance mast and daggers, produce a boat capable of a 10% speed increase?
One of the problems in making rotomolded hulls is that the material does not have stiffness in flat panels. Due to the manufacturing process, putting in stiffening members (frames and stringers) is very hard, and would add more weight. So you need to design in support in the hull shape itself, or compensate with thicker hulls. So there will be limits to what you can achieve with this construction technique.
I think you have to bear in mind that rotomoulded dinghies are improving rapidly - you just need to look at the Dart, Laser or RS ranges and see how they've progressed from small, singlehanders like the Pico and Topaz to
full sized
boats like the Xenon, Omega and Vago in a relatively short time. The Dart 16 has been around a while now and it certainly can't be state of the rotomoulder's art anymore. I'm sure I read that Topper are launching a range of rotomoulded cats next year (I'd guess at the London Boat Show in January). It'll be interesting to see how they go.
full sized
boats like the Xenon, Omega and Vago in a relatively short time. The Dart 16 has been around a while now and it certainly can't be state of the rotomoulder's art anymore. I'm sure I read that Topper are launching a range of rotomoulded cats next year (I'd guess at the London Boat Show in January). It'll be interesting to see how they go.
Laser claim that the new Dart 16X has hulls that are stronger and stiffer and almost 15% lighter than the original boat. So, presumably the technology has improved.
The new Toppers are also Yves Loday designs and should be interesting.