safe sailing

What do you want to accomplish with the new rule, and how do you think it would best be accomplished?

What is the current ROW rule?

All spinnakers have the right of way all the time! Yeah!

(actually, spinnaker foots got a lot higher and are easier to see under than they were in the early 2000's.)

all helicopters and planes must yield to spinnaker flying beach cats...

I was going to say that i don't have any problems seeing the waterline with my spin out...

If you want safe ,join a chess club. Pretty low accident rate.Or better yet PAY ATTENTION. How long have spinnakers been on boats? Nothing has changed.

What Pete is looking for is something like what they use in iceboating, where the windward boat has the right of way when going off the wind (freedom to bear away in a puff).

It is possible to change Rule 11 in the SIs, although I've never seen the language they use for iceboating.

I think it opens up a whole new can of worms - that doesn't need opening. I've seen (and been in) a few close calls, but usually it's between a boat going upwind and a boat going downwind.

This would not prevent port / starboard situations from occurring between upwind / downwind boats, which is where most of the danger comes from.

The

Problem

is the huge blind spot the spinnaker creates, which is even worse when sailing Uni, with no crew to look under it. I don't want to hit anyone, ever, and I often tack/gybe early to stay away from what could turn into a close call, even if that means going the -wrong way-for a 100 yards or so, but still there are times when you just cannot keep track of all the boats coming around the C mark and going upwind, while you are flying a hull with the spin up going downwind, especially when racing in mixed fleets.

There was that incident with the I 20 and Hobie Wave a while back, remember? Was that a

spinnaker induced

collision? I know I nearly took out an A cat last weekend, I only saw the top 1' of his mast over the top of my spin at the last second and was able to bear off to duck him. I don't know if he saw me coming or what he was going to do if I didn't. It could have been ugly! When it's blowing and the spray is flying, you cannot hear another boat hailing until they are nearly too close to miss.

I've always obeyed the golden rule when racing,

Do unto others as you would have them to unto you

, or;

Payback's a Bitch!

so I don't intentionally push it, whether I'm the right of way boat going upwind or the spin boat coming down, a couple yards lost to a gybe or duck is not worth the time, money and mental anguish of a collision, not to mention you could be out for the rest of the regatta.

I would be in favor of some type of

Understanding

that when you are going upwind and you see a spin boat hauling butt in a huge puff comging down at you, you might want to assume he does NOT see you, and GTF Outa' the way!

I mean, that's just common sense, right? Unless you own a fiberglass repair company or an ambulance service...

One rule I like is :

No non-spi boat shall ever share the course with a spi-boats.

That is just asking for trouble especially when a non-spi boat is snaking about trying to do the wildthing.

Wouter

I have no problem with other boats going downwind while I'm going downwind, usually, because we are going nearly the same speed and we can usually see each other. It's when I'm running downwind and some guy is coming upwind, in my fleet or any other fleet.

Or maybe there was no problem when he rounded, but then he tacks, I never see him. Maybe he never saw me coming, or he thinks it won't be close, then a puff comes along and I've got to bear off deep...all of a sudden, it's a problem and I'm busy trying to keep it upright, not looking out below, in the blind spot the spinnaker causes.

I've mentioned before, I'll mention again ... I have a blind spot REGARDLESS of the spinacker flying.

STAY CLEAR OF 733!!

It isn't just me. Some people with impeccable credentials are very concerned.

The greatest danger is deemed to be after a spin boat clears the windward offset, bears away, and sails across the course of boats still on a beat.

I'll bring this matter up with the F16 class, those of you interested can PM me and I'll keep you in the loop.

I'm with Wouter on this. And it's not just about spinnaker and non-spinnaker boats. It's more generally about fast boats and slow boats being on the same course. Especially downwind, where various speeds of boats and sail configurations are all sailing different angles downwind -- including some sailing straight downwind. And slow boats may see the collision coming, but they do not have the ability to get out of the way -- sort of like a manatee getting run over by a powerboat.

I respectfully disagree that it is possible to change RRS 11 with the SIs. RRS 86.1(b) states the specific rules that cannot be changed by SIs, and that refers to 86.1(a) which includes all Part 2 rules. And, RRS 11 is in Part 2.

I actually think this is a good thing, because Part 2 rules are really the fundamental rules that keep boats from going boom. As has been pointed out several times on this site, no one ever reads the SIs anyway, so trying to change this rule for a specific event (or series) could lead to a false sense of security, and more crashes caused by those who didn't know about the SI change.

There are enough other rules already, and besides common sense, those tell you to not hit another boat, no matter who has the right of way.

My rule of thumb has always been, if I can't see the other guy's eyes, he can't see me.

I've sailed on spinnaker boats, and they have certainly gotten better (higher off the water, etc.), but the onus is always on everyone to keep watch. If that doesn't work, avoid the collision, hail protest and figure it out later.

EDIT: Or, work to have the RRS changed...

Mike

Simple as that.

Mike is correct regarding the Rules in Part 2 - I was shooting from the hip, thinking that ice boats used a modified RRS. They do not.

They have their own

Constitution and Racing Rules of the National Iceboat Authority

. Those would not help in this situation, since the primary problem is the conflict between upwind / downwind boats.

And still I remember there was one very experienced ice boater killed not too long ago when two of them came together at speed...

Be careful out there, and -never- assume the other guy see's you coming.

In that case, the offset mark was set wrong!
The offset mark was introduced because of the concerns voiced in this thread. You should be able to bear off after the offset and not encounter any upwind boats until after your gybe.

that assumes you don't grossly overstand the left layline like some of us commonly do

The answer is: back to triangle courses. Or any non up-down course. It is also more fun.

Gentlemen,

There are TWO basic rules in the RRS that supersede all other rules:

1) Competitors are required to render ANY and ALL Assistence needed to anyone (or vessel) in distress!!!

2) ALL COLLISONS are to be avoided !!!!

Any questions .... anyone????

Mike/Brucat is quite correct in his interpitation of the rules and his philosophy towards the rules ... no matter who THINKS they have the

Right of Way

in the final analysis a

Captain's

responsibility is .... SAFETY!!!!! Not to win or even finish the race.

FIRST ... LAST ... ALWAYS SAFETY !!!!!

So ... if you are the

RoW

vessel, avoid the collison, hail

Protest

... and if they do not do their penalty, bring them in front of the

Protest Committee

... remember the

RoW

vessel gets to determine what is

Too Close

....

Harry

how about a REALLY REALLY offset mark!

That's would then be

B mark

.

No, and no it's not.

you didn't watch race 2 of the Americas cup then?

This is entirely correct. I was about to say the same thing until I came across this post. I'm not going to quote further, but I agree with everything else Mike said as well.

If you really, really want to change the basic right-of-way rules, you could claim you are testing proposed rule changes under RRS 86.3, but then US SAILING limits you to local races unless you get their prior written permission for each event (and other restrictions apply).

Regards,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge,
Member Area D Appeals Committee

Also,

You can't just change it for the F16's and then expect all the other classes that share the same race course to abide by your rules. You can't have different classes of boats using different right of way rules on the same body of water at the same time. THATS dangerous.

I thought he was talking about any spinnaker boats, not just F16's?

The

avoid collision at all costs

should cover it though.

that comment was in regards to:

this.

One of the main reasons that the weather (or offset) mark is a dangerous place with spinnaker boats is that the crews are so busy hoisting the kite and adjusting things, they may be more likely to take their eyes off the road.

While this won't fix all the problems, one major help here is to have a separate (longer) weather mark (and offset) for the spinnaker boats. Won't help much in a 50-boat spinnaker fleet, but will help a ton in mixed fleets.

There are other issues that can happen elsewhere on the course that cannot be easily addressed with rule changes. The primary one is spinnaker boats on the edge of control when it's blowing like stink. They have to bear off (a lot sometimes), which can be unexpected for boats going upwind.

Anyway, I'm tired but my point is that I emphasize with this issue, and didn't want to sound preachy in my prior post. But, as others have mentioned, the worst thing on a course (for all of us) is any boat that is sailing around, knowing that they can't see. At that point, snuff the spinnaker, or buy a boat that you can actually control. <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Mike