It is possible to change Rule 11 in the SIs, although I've never seen the language they use for iceboating.
I think it opens up a whole new can of worms - that doesn't need opening. I've seen (and been in) a few close calls, but usually it's between a boat going upwind and a boat going downwind.
This would not prevent port / starboard situations from occurring between upwind / downwind boats, which is where most of the danger comes from.
The other thing Ice Boats have experimented with is having Darling marks on the course.Prevents boats from rounding weather mark and gybing right away onto starboard.Also prevents boats from coming in right on the port tack layline,or coming in hot on the starboard layline downwind.
That's what an offset mark is - and we already have them......
Hi group,
Rules are rules, and when you change them I think that alone can cause trouble-Geeze in this regatta do I yield or not? You can either sail a triangle that sometimes turns into a simple drag race, or follow the rules and yield,change course, drop the spin, whatever it takes to keep clear of a boat that has rights. Common sense also rules-if you are in last place in your class and six spin boats are screaming into the mark-maybe the prudent thing to do is swing a little wide.Been there done that while snaking about trying to figure that wild thing out.
Regards to all.
Ken
No, Darling marks are not just offset marks.The weather Darling mark is placed down wind and to the right (looking upwind) of the weather mark.The leeward darling is placed upwind and to the left of the leeward mark.You are not allowed to sail between the mark(called turning bouy) and darling mark.
Keep in mind Ice boats are going 40-70 M.P.H.,when you have a collision you are losing more then just gelcoat.
so the darling marks are basically offset marks but on the approach to the mark - not on the departure side?
The way I'm reading it - which may be wrong, wouldn't that eliminate the port layline approach to the windward mark?
Yes but they acomplish two thinks.By always passing the darling marks on the left,you avoid having boats crash in on the laylines,and you also avoid having boats tack or gybe after rounding a mark.
Not suggesting this for soft water sailing (probably too much work for race commitee),but it really avoids head on collisions,especially important when sailing ice boat angles.
how about someone who port tacks the layline to the windward mark and who is ducking the left side darling mark with a windward spinnaker boat rounding it?
Same situation happens just at a different mark.
yeah, I know...
This sport isn't completely 100% safe and never will be. As much as anyone messes with the windward mark- with offsets,
pre
offsets before the mark there is still the rest of the course. Driving at spring fever required a lot of situational awareness. It only takes one head in the boat moment dealing with a fouled jib sheet/downhaul/rotator to lose that awareness. I still have those moments of
crap, I just gybed and I am not sure I really checked my 6 o'clock.
anyway... we all gotta trust each other and maintain as much situational awareness as possible.
This sport isn't completely 100% safe and never will be. As much as anyone messes with the windward mark- with offsets,
pre
offsets before the mark there is still the rest of the course. Driving at spring fever required a lot of situational awareness. It only takes one head in the boat moment dealing with a fouled jib sheet/downhaul/rotator to lose that awareness. I still have those moments of
crap, I just gybed and I am not sure I really checked my 6 o'clock.
anyway... we all gotta trust each other and maintain as much situational awareness as possible.
as a guy who races only a few times a year (and have only skippered 1 time)... it might be beneficial to have a
newbee skippers meeting
pre or post the regular skippers meetings at events to go over some rules/situations to be esp on the look out for. I admit i know few only a few rules, and much of what was said here is over my head...
at spring fever (not sure if they always do this) they had a system wherein if you were somewhat new/not completely comfy then you could put a flag on your boat so people would understand that and give them a little more room or know that they might need some assistance. I like that.
Seems like one of the TVS teams needed one since one of them fouled us 3 times in one race! <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
Seems like one of the TVS teams needed one since one of them fouled us 3 times in one race! <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
Hahah, kinda like riding the little yellow school bus (at the race)! <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /> i would need 2 flags 😛
I think its a good idea, because in a race.. i would never want my lack of knowledge/exp to be a factor in anyone else's race... or more importantly safety... and i know locally at least there are several others with even less experience than myself in every race
One of the missions of TVS is to bring younger, more inexperienced teams into the fold and help them get some more tiller time and give them the support they need to be competitive. So yes, its likely that one of them could have fouled you - but if they did their turns then there's no issue.
I didn't really consider that they were inexperienced. I would have made a bigger deal (from an educational POV) if I had thought so- I kind of thought they were just being pricks actually <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />. They didn't do any turns (though at one point I figured we came really close to fouling them back so I yelled out-
that makes us even
for at least one <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
If I feel that I might have fouled someone during a race but not clearly I always try to find that boat after the finish to check to see what their interpretation was from a personal learning perspective.
If you are fouled and the offending party does not do their turns then you are obligated to file a protest IMO.
Or at least go up to them after the race and talk to them about it to ask them why they obviously felt that they didn't foul you.
Or at least go up to them after the race and talk to them about it to ask them why they obviously felt that they didn't foul you.
How does one really know if the offender did their turns? You're not required to do them immediately .... only before you complete the race. Right?
Same situation happens just at a different mark.
You would have two boats basically going the same heading,so no threat there of a head on collision.
In match racing you're supposed to do them before you finish. In fleet racing you're supposed to do them as soon as safely possible IIRC.
right
I had a situation at midwinters where I thought I clearly fouled jmac and so we did our turns before finishing. We also got fouled during the race by someone else. We did our turns then went to jmac after and he didn't seem to think we did (or didn't care). I didn't press the issue with the other boat. We were on starboard with the spin, they on port and we saw them and we both crash gybed basically. They thought they had started their gybe in time to allow us to pass. I guess we could have pressed it but I didn't care in the end.
undecided- I didn't know that... so I suppose we didn't do it correctly. Hell, I am not even sure we did the turn correctly <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
coming to the leeward mark on port. gybed to starboard, headed up, tacked and the went to the mark on starboard
Dont take my word as gospel please. I just take the safe approach because I don't really know.
Doing them ASAP == before the finish so I've got all bases covered.
Or at least go up to them after the race and talk to them about it to ask them why they obviously felt that they didn't foul you.
When you do your turns you should always call over to a boat in the vicinity to witness them.
How does one really know if the offender did their turns? You're not required to do them immediately .... only before you complete the race. Right?
Or at least go up to them after the race and talk to them about it to ask them why they obviously felt that they didn't foul you.
How does one really know if the offender did their turns? You're not required to do them immediately .... only before you complete the race. Right?
When you do your turns you should always call over to a boat in the vicinity to witness them.
Or at least go up to them after the race and talk to them about it to ask them why they obviously felt that they didn't foul you.
How does one really know if the offender did their turns? You're not required to do them immediately .... only before you complete the race. Right?
After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of
the line before finishing.
In fleet racing, the above language governs. ASAP means ASAP, not when it is convenient to do so.
Match racing is completely different.
yeah I always thought that the words
as soon as possible
were a poor choice in this rule.
My manager seriously flies off the handle when anyone uses that term since is sooo subjective.
what dictates if its a 1 turn or 2 turn penalty?
whats the penalty for secretly attaching someones catamaran to a cinder-block?
whats the penalty for secretly attaching someones catamaran to a cinder-block?
SIs should state it- if I am not mistaken the rules say 2 turns (720) but most SIs change that to 1 turn (360).. am I wrong?
To all the
confused
people:
I've been as guilty of this as anyone, but I've been trying to turn a new leaf. Before guessing what the RRS says and typing an opinion here, open the book and read it. When posting here, be sure to include the rule number, it will help everyone. Hint: the RRS is also available (free) online on several sites (USSA, ISAF).
At least in my case, when I don't do this, I have often found myself
misremembering
the RRS, which can lead to some embarrasing statements. Any time you open the rule book, it either teaches you something or reinforces something, both of which will help you tremendously on the water when you have no time to be looking things up.
Paraphrasing, but basically, the default rule of 44.1 is, for any violations of Part 2, two turns. Hit a mark, one turn (yes, there are exceptions, look them up).
PTP is right, SIs can (and often do) change the requirements given in RRS 44.1 and 44.2. Most often for cat regattas, we use one-turn for everything.
Here's the most creative change that I've seen (this was for a big-boat regatta):
RRS 44.1 and 44.2 are changed so that, except for infringements of Part 2 that occur within the zone of a rounding mark or finishing mark only one turn, including one tack and one gybe, is required.
Hope this helps.
Mike
Yes and no. There is no rule that requires a boat to protest. However, the preamble to the rules says:
Although you are not compelled to protest, you are expected to.
Wrong. As mbounds already pointed out, (in fleet racing) the penalty turn(s) must be taken as soon as possible - not when convenient.
It sounds like:
1) you didn't do your turn(s)
as soon as possible
, which is incorrect
2) you did one turn - not two. This is not correct according to the rules, unless the Sailing Instructions changed the penalty (which they often do).
3) the turn you describe DOES satisfy the requirement of
one tack and one gybe in the same direction
. A penalty turn does not have to be a complete 360 degrees.
No. ASAP means immediately after the incident, not anytime before the finish. See the quote below:
After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of
the line before finishing.
In fleet racing, the above language governs. ASAP means ASAP, not when it is convenient to do so.
as soon as possible
were a poor choice in this rule.
Well,
as soon as possible
is less problematic than the term
promptly
(which occurs later in the rule). In either case, substitute the phrase
without delay
to better interpret rule 44.2.
whats the penalty for secretly attaching someones catamaran to a cinder-block?
The penalty for breaking a rule of Part 2 (
When Boats Meet
) when racing is two turns - unless the SI's specify differently. The penalty for breaking rule 31 (
Touching A Mark
) is one turn. Attaching a cinder-block to someone else's boat would constitute a breach of rule 2 (
Fair Sailing
), and the penalty would be DNE (disqualification non-excludable). If the Protest Committee felt it constituted a
gross breach of sportsmanship
, then you might wind up facing greater penalties.
I hope that helps,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee
No, and no it's not.
It is because you have to watch for less traffic. Fun factor is debatable of course. But reaching remains me, why I like and sail cats and not monos.
Cheers,
Klaus
Isotope:
Doing them ASAP == before the finish so I've got all bases covered.
No. ASAP means immediately after the incident, not anytime before the finish. See the quote below:
Answer me this.
If I do my turned
As soon as possible
... how is that not in the set of timepoints in the superset of
before the finish
.
I can't think of any scenario in which doing a turn as soon as you are able to is not before you finish unless you foul someone AT the finish line.
You misunderstood what I wrote.