Safety Quiz

Without the mast, the boat has two, very stable positions: Upside down and rightside up. Getting from one to the other is very difficult.

With the mast, even if it has some water in it (which when submerged has neutral bouyancy) provides a critical intermediate stable position - capsized.

The only boat I've seen righted on the water from turtle w/o a mast is a Hobie 14. It took two guys (me and Greg Raybon - about 360 lbs total) standing on one hull with the righting line over the other hull and we had to

bounce

it over in one quick motion. You'd need probably four or five people to do that with a Hobie 18.

thanks for the details, make perfect sense now

This thread could be a life saver to someone, someday...

I just didn't go out unless I had a boat with me. Before we lost the Dike, I have set down there for hours waiting and go back home because no other boats showed up. It was a bummer, but I lived to sail another day. To many things can happen QUICK out there (breakage, weather). Had a old salt go over with a newbie that had a life jacket that wouldn't close. He weighted about 300. Newbie sled off and old salt had a problem getting boat back over in the rough seas. Boat left the newbie real quick. If I wasn't there to get the newbie onboard, we would of had a funeral, as I had a hard time finding him in the chop. BE SAFE, no sorry.

Doug

Yeah, capsizing in 85* water that's 3 feet deep scares the crap outta me too. <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />

There, fixed it for you. I've yet to hurt myself doing this - you are leaning off the boat over the water. I guess if your feet skate out from underneath you could bust your but on the hull.

Sounds like an elegant trick Matt. What boats have you successfully used this technique on? Something makes me think this may work better on a shorter platform with less flotation at the ends, but I'm happy to be educated otherwise.

Chris.

Doug,
They're having an award banquet for you. Be at the end of the Dike Friday night.

Fair enough . .

I never turtled my Tiger. That boat was the easiest one to right (done it myself in the right wind/waves), but the hardest one to get back on, especially when it wants to take off downwind on you because of the self-tacking jib.

The

rear corner trick

works really well on a Hobie 16 and fairly well on a Hobie 17 - those are the two boats I have personal experience on.

The point is to get something up into the air, even if it's just one bow, so that the wind can get under it and help bring the boat up to the capsized position. While your method will work (I've done it, too - and busted my butt doing it), it's more difficult to bring up the whole side of the boat at once.

works on a Hobie 20, don't ask me how I know
and...it was kind of windy that day <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
http://funnyinterestingoruseful.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/failboat.jpg?w=450&h=301

Yes, absolutely. Today, while sailing in approximately 10 mph winds, we were getting unexpected gusts of what must have been 15-20 mph. It was like being hit with a solid wall of wind. Things happened quickly.

Anyway, there's too much missing to this story. Like:

Despite all the other considerations which aren't known here... the starting point of all appears to be the tramp causing the boat to set sail. I guess!!???

...there must have been a lot of current too though?

You're a serious tease, J...

So, are there circumstances where one person could not turn the boat into the wind by him/herself?

If I were the crew and if it were the tramp causing the problem and if I couldn't turn the boat into the wind and if I were in enough of a panic to consider CLIMBING THE MAST!, instead I probably would have decided to cut the tramp loose and calmed the situation down. Even taken a knife to it. (Better than losing the whole boat.)

Lee:

Why do you always have to be an butt. Just born in you? I feel good I saved someone life, the guy almost drown. His head was barely above the water when we found him after a 30 min search. If that is funny to you, I feel sorry for you.

Doug

I left the story sort of vague to get everyone to think.

There was no safety gear aboard except for a righting line, if you count that. There is a < 1 kt current running northward and the prevailing wind comes from the NW.

But...the conditions don't matter, there were a few grave errors that we can all learn from no matter where or when we sail.

I also highlighted a few things purposely.

What about the time? Sailing a beachcat with no nav lights around dusk in the open ocean isn't the best approach if you want to keep living.

Just a quick brainstorm and my assessment:

Have a float plan of some kind. Have well maintained gear so that you can minimize your chance of an accidents in the first place. Sealed mast/ float. Good shrouds and anchors. Righting line that you know how to use. Blah, blah, blah.

Have your personal kit ready to go when you need it. Knife, PFD, Wetsuit (or proper sailing gear) etc. That kid that recently died because he was tangled in the trap line could have easily been saved if he or his crew had a knife in their jacket pocket. (RIP, no disrespect). I talked to one of the guys that works with that team and he said the crew were frantically diving underwater to try and free him. One zip with a sharp knife on those Vectran trap lines and it would've possibly done the trick.

And then, if all else fails and you can't self rescue. Call the coasties on your VHF. VHF is the beast bet because it's a direct line to the dudes that are coming out to get you. Most coastie boats, Harbor Patrol have Radio Direction Finders on board, which can aid in them finding you. Carry it ON YOU. Doesn't do you any good sailing away under trampoline power. Like that guy that spent 2 hours in the water last year while every agency and the Surf City Skiff was out looking. His boat was found on the rocks at 26th ave. He rescued it and sails it to this day WITH A RADIO.

I won't even tell you about the guy that flipped his boat last week in a 35kt Northerly in shorts and a T-shirt and his VHF went straight to the bottom because it was stowed on the trampoline. Not in the pocket or tied, just sitting on the tramp. I see all kinds here.

Be safe out there.

J

Edit:
BTW I thought it was a brilliant move for the crew to turtle the boat to slow it down. Have you ever tried to find a head bobbing around in the water. I have. It's waaaay more difficult than looking for a canary yellow catamaran.

Excellent posts, lots of really good information in here for the newbies (i.e. me!)

there are old sailors and bold sailors, there are no old, bold sailors

- anon.

the time to reef is the first time it occurs to you.

- anon.

The decision to leave shore is yours alone. Some days it's best to just beach comb.

http://www.spc.noaa.gov/faq/tornado/beaufort.html

Hey Karl,it gets REAL BAD HERE TOO! i could capsize and get a real bad jelly fish sting... and it could get infected. hehe...

just cause it was a

chamber of commerce

day when you were here ... its not all fun and sun! I have been hit with 40-45mph squall lines, we have lost dozens of cats all lined up on the causeway pre-race (mini twister) and i have a good friend who had to take rescue from weather in the mangroves... only to watch a water spout pick up his dart20 and take it for a

SPIN

in the gulf of Mehico. The weather channel came down to re-create and film that one...

J

Back in the day, we did have a public beach where everyone trailered in to go sailing. As a newbie, I could meet other sailors, and I learned a lot by talking to the old guys. Most were recreational sailors (not racers) and they had a lot of invaluable experience.

My current beach is very different. Nobody asks questions. I only butt in when I am sure somebody will get hurt... (Like trying to step the mast without the shrouds attached.)

Did culture change that much??

The first time i brought my new (to me) h16 to the dunedin causeway (10 years ago), i had 4 or 5 people walk up to me and talk to me about how to rig it, and talk to me about the area. that always stuck with me...

We still have new guys walk up and ask us for help/rigging/best areas to sail questions etc...

So that culture is still alive here...

Mark,
You NOT butt in, c'mon. <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
Actually, I think the intarweb may have replaced alot of the questions of yore. People get on a site like this and can get a bunch of different opinions. Unfortunately ,there is no way to qualify those opinions. Posters can post whatever they want whether it makes sense or comes from experience or not.If you've been around here long you start to be able to tell the seasoned from the inexperienced, sadly it seems the inexperienced voices are often the first to pipe up.
Todd

Todd, why don't you tell your story of getting separated from the boat. It was kind of funny.
Doug, I guess the joke was in bad taste, sorry.

You can tell it, I don't feel like typing that much.Plus someone's feelings might get hurt.Not you,Lee, you don't have any.

Lighten up Francis! <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Uhh, that was light.

Worked on a Hobie 21 racing version (with spi), Supercat 17, Hobie 16... I guess it works for most -if not all- beach cats.

Thanks Luiz. I look forward to giving this technique a go the next time the unthinkable happens. I guess you need some decent breeze to make it work, but then again that is typically when turning turtle is more likely.

Chris.

Going out to the back corner works on a tiger. I have tested the theory during the ditch run. Also works on the H-18. Stand on the hull right next to the rudderholding the righting line, as the bows come up walk tward the dagger board anf your in regular capsize..

Lee:

No problem. It was just a scary day. Guy should of had a PFD that fit. Todd had his hands full with righting the boat and it was real SCARY not being able to find the guy in the chop. When I finally pulled his %&*%^%&( weight up on the Mystere 4.3 he was exhausted and white as a sheet. Thank God we found him. People should always have a PFD that fits are stay on the beach in ruff weather. Least we all lived to sail another day. Really miss the Dike, hope they can get it back some day. If you ever want a crew for the Wed nights, let me know.

Doug

getting back on a boat after falling off is an entirely different can of worms... i was so exhausted after righting i almost couldn't get on my cat... and my jib filled w/air and i was steaming toward a rocky seawall...

I've never tried this, but I know people that swear by it.

If you're too tired to pull yourself up with upper body strength, use your legs (and hands and brains)...

Take one of the sheets, and tie a large loop in it (like 2 or more feet across). Tie this to the crossbar, and use it like a ladder step. Basically, you're making a foothold so you can use your (much) stronger leg muscles to get up onto the boat.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Not if the jib is drawing. Don't ask me how I know.

If strength alone fails, you must get the boat head to wind and lose all way.

Get in the gym, gain the necessary strength.

Well, that's a given, you have to stop the boat before doing anything else. But, once stopped, there should be no reason the loop trick won't work.

You can always remove the jib sheet from the boat if the situation is dire enough (although I wouldn't recommend that unless you're really desperate).

Mike

By the time I decided to try the loop, I was already tired and wobbly. In the end, I swam around to the outside of the boat, near the shroud, grabbed the trap. handle and managed to get aboard using legs and arms.

The time spent in the gym is by far the better solution. Now, I practice

porposing

onto the boat each time I go out.