Karl, You're becoming so PC. <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
So when did this pissing match between the F16 guys and the rest of cat sailing start? I must have missed something.
At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board?
If both boards are made with the same materials and same processes (a big IF), the justification for the extra 20% is:
a) amortization of the more expensive plug
b) a few extra layers of carbon
c) amortization of development cost/project (but BMWO's program indirectly paid for this...)
20% might be more than enough.
So when did this pissing match between the F16 guys and the rest of cat sailing start? I must have missed something.
From the outset. There are two mind sets: 1) the world isn't big enough for another boat; 2) the more the merrier.
Not aware there was a start, I think you maybe are reading more into this, than there really is.
At only 20% greater cost than an F18 board?
If both boards are made with the same materials and same processes (a big IF), the justification for the extra 20% is:
a) amortization of the more expensive plug
b) a few extra layers of carbon
c) amortization of development cost/project (but BMWO's program indirectly paid for this...)
20% might be more than enough.
Look, the quality of that F20c daggerboard is, bar none, one of the highest quality foils I have encountered and in line with the customer stuff I've seen on some of the hot shot F18s and A-cats. I've designed and built composite tooling, used it, visited the Nacra Factory, sailed a **** load of Nacras and Hobies, etc. It is a deal to be able to purchase that daggerboard within 20% of the standard F18 straight boards. It is extremely well made, light, and finished. It doesn't just
barely
float either. It floats by a lot.
If you guys have some sort of other
short boat
issue, take it elsewhere. It's becoming tiresome and you're starting to repeat yourselves.
And wait till you see the new F18 boards, same level of finish and toughness.
Our teams have been sailing with them since before the worlds and despite being longer than any other board we have not broken any, despite some pretty serious thrashings of pre-production boards by our teams in conditions that have seen a lot of other boards fail..
Macca: Do you know if you can retrofit the new boards to existing boats? (upgrade kits?).
Tony, I'm sure nacra will sell a pair of boards to you sight unseen.
It will be possible, we have an insert for the existing case that you glue in place and then the new board fits perfect.
New boards are not yet available, but will let you know when they come in production. Alternatively you can get a free set with every 2011 model Infusion <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
short boat
issue, take it elsewhere. It's becoming tiresome and you're starting to repeat yourselves.
Check out the posters boat who you were having a pop at, you maybe surprised, certainly no
short boat
there <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />
New boards are not yet available, but will let you know when they come in production. Alternatively you can get a free set with every 2011 model Infusion <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
Figures. My two new boards just came in from Performance and they are already outdated. Just my luck I guess.
We ain't comparing Hyundai's and Ferrari's. We're comparing Hyundai's to Hyundai's. Its a slight variation, not a whole new frickin' breed of animal. I said it before, I don't know much about boat building. As far as I know you're laying a pliable material into a mold, whether its got a curve or not, I don't see the difference, but I would like too.
Okay if you say so, plenty of things are bolted together that hold up just dandy under some very extreme loads. But I still would like to know why. I like to learn things, and just saying
no
wrapped up in your ****/kunt like attitude isn't enough info for me. What Jake was getting at is that a giant block of material can get expensive, especially when most of it is going into the recycling bin. Furthermore if it is really big then there are issues of finding people that can deal with it, which if you're in a niche market you get to charge pretty much what you want and tell people to go screw themselves with a smile while they pay you knowing they'll be back because there just isn't any other options. Like I said, if a billet aluminum race car chassis can be machined and assembled and hold up to what a track and a whole mess of hp can throw at it, I don't see why something simple like this can't be done that way as well. Or, perhaps its something that hasn't been explored yet in this application and should be? There's always a better mousetrap to be built, or a better way to build it(whether it improves the product or the production), regardless of what you manufacture.
Never said anything different. I'm just curious why you say the boards are soooo inexpensive, yet say production is soooo costly. That business model doesn't hold up for too long.
Give it time and it probably will be, right now its still in the voodoo magic category. Sailing has been around for how many thousands of years? How long did it take to just be able to go to weather? How far has it come in the past 50-25-10-5 years? I'm in the camp where I'd like to see the A-cats, F18's, and F16's (or whatever) take advantage of everything they can in both material and design.
Hi Macca
How are the boards layed up?
Are Nacra using male foam (with stringers) with Carbon over the top or carbon skin with epoxy foam that is then clamped? I assume the former, Just wonderin' !
Would you like the full laminate spec published?? <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
Lets just say that there is an internal structure, not only foam.
As we currently build trouble free foils and others are not, I'd like to keep it that way!!
OK we have the price of the boards now nailed down, in writing, and explored the where with all of their build quality, by the way the price Macca is quoting seems a bargain to me considering the speciality and the numbers that will be sold.
Lets move on now and explore the pros and cons of the boards, not just with the Nacra 20 but in a more general terms for all future boats, as one thing is for certain, the marketing hype of C boards in production boats is just too high not to be used again and again to launch new models. Like em or not be convinced by them, we are going to have to live with them in the future.
Lets start the ball rolling with many peoples view that the foil has to be balanced in just the optimum angle of attack to gain best speed benefit, now that optimum AOA on a boat as short as 20ft is going to be difficult for the average sailor, shorten it further to say a 16ft boat and is that going to be ubber difficult.
On the other hand when things are right, the boat in theory will be faster, one only has to look at the Moths to convince ourselves of that.
Come on folks lets discuss this logically and without bias, it may come up with some really interesting open forum discussion.
Lets move on now and explore the pros and cons of the boards, not just with the Nacra 20 but in a more general terms for all future boats, as one thing is for certain, the marketing hype of C boards in production boats is just too high not to be used again and again to launch new models. Like em or not be convinced by them, we are going to have to live with them in the future.
Lets start the ball rolling with many peoples view that the foil has to be balanced in just the optimum angle of attack to gain best speed benefit, now that optimum AOA on a boat as short as 20ft is going to be difficult for the average sailor, shorten it further to say a 16ft boat and is that going to be ubber difficult.
On the other hand when things are right, the boat in theory will be faster, one only has to look at the Moths to convince ourselves of that.
Come on folks lets discuss this logically and without bias, it may come up with some really interesting open forum discussion.
I think anyone who wants to make comments on the advantages or otherwise of the curved foils on a boat like the F20, Should sail the boat before they put strong opinions out there.
As I am one person with time on such boats and also completed a lot of testing between identical platforms with only the foils changed. I can tell you that the curved foils are better. Sure you have to learn how to sail with them. Same as we had to learn how to sail with kites on cats... but would you go back to a non kite boat now??? For me the foils are as big a step as adding the kite was. Its seriously that much of a difference in the way you sail the boat.
But for Wayne to say that curved foils on a 20ft boat will make it difficult to sail is a rash and unjustified statement with no basis of fact or experience. We have some very
normal
customers sailing the F20 and its no problem for them to get the best out of the boat.
Its not theory, its tested and proven.
<**** and it will fail just like so many other good products that has been and gone because the product couldn't live up to expectations.
<**** and it will fail just like so many other good products that has been and gone because the product couldn't live up to expectations.
Wayne, you did make the statement above... so where have I misquoted you?
Any one can cut sentences about to mean anything you want it to, people are not stupid and will have read the whole sentence in the context meant, grow up a bit please.
Clarify for me then: are you saying that it will be difficult to sail with optimum AOA with curved boards on a 20ft boat and to directly quote you
ubber difficult
on a 16ft boat?
I think its important to consider that not all c-boarded cats are created equal. Whereas most of the C-board cats thus far have been A-class and C-class cats and some marstrom 20's, its difficult to call the platforms even and comment on the performance of the boards alone.
I'm wagering that the F20C behaves much differently than an A-cat with curved boards. Sure they may share some similar behaviors, but I'm willing to bet that the differences in platforms account for a significant change in behavior.
Amen. Nothing worse than being opinionated about something you don't have experience with. Too bad the F20c was not able to hang out for the weekend in Annapolis/West River. Next time!
Macca can you talk a bit about the development process? On boats that were built prior with curved foils, what didn't work and how are these foils a step forward from prior attempts?
Having sailed a gazillion miles (give or take a couple) on A-cats, F-18's, N-20's, and the infamous 18HT. I think I'm somewhat qualified to compare the various platforms and the difficulty it takes to extract maximum performance.
The F20c is no more difficult to get up to speed than any of the others. There are some nuances that you need to be aware of, fore/aft weight placement and board height are significant adjustments. However the boat provides lots of feedback to help you make those corrections. Anyone that has spent enough time most other cats will recognize this, and pick up on it right away.
Just my .02 cents worth...
Mike and Macca -
I realize the answer to this question has many variables, but I'd appreciate any info/suggestions/beliefs you may have.
What crew weight do you think is best suited to this boat? Assuming a steady crew that wants to be competitive in light air, but is also heavy enough to depower when it gets nasty. Not being a N20 sailor, how does that compare to the N20 crew weight?
Awesome machine. I appreciate the effort taken to develop, test and market it.
I don't have enough time on the boat in heavy air to comment just yet. However, Macca should chime in with some real time experience in those conditions and comparisons.
Lets move on now and explore the pros and cons of the boards, not just with the Nacra 20 but in a more general terms for all future boats, as one thing is for certain, the marketing hype of C boards in production boats is just too high not to be used again and again to launch new models. Like em or not be convinced by them, we are going to have to live with them in the future.
Lets start the ball rolling with many peoples view...
Come on folks lets discuss this logically and without bias, it may come up with some really interesting open forum discussion.
I thought that was a great attempt by Wayne to change course here and get some real substance out of this discussion. Apparently mecca is not interested in that.
I can't speak for anyone else but the credibility of the NACRA 20 CF for me comes from the involvement of Morrelli & Melvin....(including Nate Shaver of their firm) in the design and engineering behind this boat...not mecca...
Maybe macca is not answering the questions because he doesn't have more than a superficial knowledge of what went into designing/engineering/and building these foils.
It would be great to get Morrelli/Melvin or Shaver on this forum to give us the real 411. Someone who can give real insight to the curved board debate and the science behind it.
If you go over to the SA forums and look at the multihull forum for
Fred is in SOOO much trouble...
- you can check out a lot of discussion from steve clark about all facets of boat design, including, IIRC banana board theory.
Whats it weigh all up?
Width is 8'6"?
Is the mast carbon or aluminum?
Sorry for being lazy and not looking this up.
Bill