spi sailing

You need to shorten the

what about these

. You may need to tie another loop at the bridles under the one you already have. The forestay and bridles need not be changed.

Take a look at page 18

Dazz has it right. Shorten the spin pole bridles and lower the middle part of the pole like so:

Ok, I think I understand! And all explanations are sounding reasanable (however the drawing by Jake confuses me a bit)

So by shortening the whiskers we should drop the pole between 15 - 20 cm (what we measured). The pole is indeed already under a lot of bend stress, so this would mean that we should tie another rope loop underneath the original one(and maybe when it turns out to be the right solution and place, I can weld one)

Jake,
The only thing I do not understand right now, are the two lines from the bridle you have drawn? As I understand correctly the bridle wires stay in place?

The red lines in Jake's drawing are new wires/lines used to support the spin pole. They originate from the same eyes on the hulls, but do not attach to the forestay. Don't move the bridle wires for structural reasons.

Exactly. If you extend the pole much farther than you already have it mounted below the furler, the middle of the pole will start to swing side to side as the spinnaker pulls the pole sideways. These baby bridles help keep the middle of the pole centered. They will also help the pole survive if you pitchpole with the spinnaker up. If the bottom of the spinnaker enters a wave it will push the pole rearward and the middle will flex up and snap.

Ok, now it's clear! Thank you all for great support. This will take a while before we have tried this (and it's also a little bit winter here), but I will let you know!

Also you can remove the wires that go to the end of the spinnaker pole and replace them with Dynema line until you think you have the length right. I just shortened the wires quite a bit and have a small length of Dynema on each side to make the adjustment.

Mike makes a good point there too. On our boat, we have dynema (Samson Amsteel) pole bridles that have a large eye splice on the hull end. That eye splice has a very long tail that tucks into the line and comes back out again after about 10 or 12". You can use that extended tail to adjust the length of the bridle. To secure it, you just tie the tail around the line.

It was some time ago, but in the meantime we've adjusted our boat (as suggested by you), and brought the spinnaker pole around 20 cm's down. Indeed the spi is a lot flatter, and yes we drive it deeper now, which means less agressive corrections. So once again: Thank you all for the help! Furthermore we've adjusted the mast rake a bit, and found out that the spreaders were not equal. So we corrected this.

Sunday we had some nice weather (16-20 knots) and made a short video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4WLqQjgBZA

I agree as you say that it still looks a little round, however I think this is also the video. We see (and experience) it's a lot flatter.

Still we have one last question. To keep everything in control, basically we drive our spinnaker most of the time sheeted in rather tight. (maximum sheet length between the boat and the spi is 1 meter) However we were more or less overtaken by another boat (very good sailors who were doing a racing track) who had the spi very

open

and more in front of the boat. It looked very fast and also in control. We tried to do the same, but as I tried it collapses every time. We have to keep it more or less in line with the jib.

Can anybody explain this? We still have to learn a lot about spinnaker sailing especially at 16 knots and up.

Pull the tack line fully in. Looks like there are 3-4cm of luff tension to gain there <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

More luff tension allows you to sheet the spi out more to go faster and deeper (to a certain point at least).

If you do the

grab the luff in your fist and twist it

test. How far can you rotate your fist? 45deg? 90deg? More?

Hwo did you set the luff tension line inside the spi luff? On a new spi I hoist the spi with a slack tension line, then tension it about 5cm.

When sailing with a spi, it is very easy to sheet in too far and close the leech. The leech needs to be open and complement the mainsail trim for optimal speed. The rule of thumb is to sheet out as far as you can, until the luff curls, at all times. Only experience will tell you when you are on the optimal course. If another boat walked over you, try to replicate their setup <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />

An old spi will become deeper as it ages and is used. A new spi is flatter and faster. If those other guys had a new spi and your spi is well used. Well.. <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Yes it seems that over time the tack line is slipping a little because I'm sure I pull it untill the stop. However when we do the test we've around 45deg now.

How did you set the luff tension line inside the spi luff? On a new spi I hoist the spi with a slack tension line, then tension it about 5cm

--> I've no clue at all what you mean????

And yes the difference in age was most certainly there as we use an original spinnaker from a boat from 1997 (however it was not used too much before we bought it) and they were a sponsored race team. (so probably a spinnaker from 2012 or 2013) However the difference was realy large. (see underneath picture as an example) can this make such a difference?

A spi from 1997 will probably be cut a lot fuller than a spi from 2012/13. there have been quite som development in those years <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
There was a generation shift about 2002 if I remember correctly. Around that year the Tornado class saw the introduction of much flatter spis shaped with more panels from the sailmaker

Gran Segel

in Sweden. The next years the other sailmakers played catch-up before the olympic games in 2004. The F18 class adopted the same, flatter, shapes.

If you can afford it, buy a nice used spi from 2010-2012 and I believe you will find it a completely different beast.

I would have checked what type of line is used for the tack line. Nylon will stretch a bit.

Nice windy conditions!

On new spis you will find a

luff line

inside the luff tape. This line is made of dynema and is used to pre-tension the luff of the spi. The function of the line is to make the spi fly better as winds increase by taking the loads in the luff. Spi cloth and luff tapes are much more stretchy than the luff line. Besides helping to keep the sail shape the luff line also helps with sail longevity.

First of all, great video. It looks like a load of fun there.

I think your tack line is stretching some.

I'm thinking that your not comparing apples to apples with your '97 cut compared to a new kite. In the past couple years I've gone through a 90s spin all the way up to a brand new one. Your spin is cut much deeper and I think your will have a difficult time trying to

follow

that hydros boat.

As Rolf indicated, it probably has something to do with the designed shape of the spinnaker more than how you are trimming it at this point. However, I do see a couple of things that might help.

1) as others have pointed out, getting the tack to stay put is important so you keep the same amount of luff tension that you intended on the beach. As the tack line slacks off, the sail will rotate to leeward and the sweet spot for trimming it properly gets narrower making it harder to keep trimmed when you sail closer to the correct angle. You will probably find that you can sail it higher and hotter if you can maintain the correct luff tension.

2) in the last segment of your video, your jib is over trimmed and we can see the leeward tale stalled almost 100% of the time. Pay attention to the jib trim even downwind - dirty air coming off the jib is dirty or overly compressed air over the main (meaning that it's hard for it to stay correctly powered from top to bottom) and you're losing some power there. It's much better to have the jib undertrimmed than overtrimmed in this scenario.

3) Upwind (assuming you were trying to sail upwind there), the mainsheet still doesn't appear to be sheeted enough. There may be some twist in the camera lens but I'm still seeing a good bit of the upper mainsail from that angle and the jib headstay looks like it's sagging a bit. Additionally, I see that you are having to foot off to stay powered up - the leeward jib tale is stalling occasionally...Stalling the leeward jib tale is worse than pinching. You may be going fast but you are giving up too much ground. Conditions don't look to terribly windy there, have the crew sheet in until he can't anymore and see what the boat feels like. If you are too powered up, you need to start depowering with downhaul and mast rake and lifting the boards a little can help settle the boat down. You can actually reach a point that if you keep sheeting harder the mainsail starts to depower. It's uncomfortable at first but once you experience it, you will quickly start to feel the efficiency. I remember the first time I had some coaching (Robbie Daniels) and he was behind me yelling

Sheet In

repeatedly through a bull horn. I thought I was really good upwind and I couldn't believe how hard he was telling me to sheet (certain my boat would break). When he finally said

there

I had about everything in it I could muster and the boat was on a rail and absolutely flying upwind. I'll never forget that sensation and it is the same on my F18 (that was on my a cat).

Setting the luff cord on the spinnaker is not super critical but should be checked (we check ours once per regatta). Basically, untie the luff cord at the tack so that it is loose (don't lose it!). Hoist the spinnaker and set it to your normal luff tension. Mark the luff cord where it exits the sail with a sharpie. Pull the luff cord 25mm (1 inch) and tie it there. You just want the luff cord to carry most of the luff tension without putting slack in the sail - it's good for the longevity of the spinnaker.

Jake, so if I understand you correctly, your tie off point ends up 1" up (from the bottom) of your sharpie mark.

Sorry, that wasn't very clear. Mark the luff cord right where it exits the luff of the sail. When you tie it off, you should see about one inch of the luff cord between your mark and where it enters the sail....i.e. you are adding one inch of tension to the luff cord to take tension off the spinnaker fabric.

Thanks you all again for the very valueble help. It's very good to know that sometimes it's not us, but the gear. For now this spinnaker is good to learn, but indeed in time we can invest in something better.

We certainly will check the tack line, and replace it by something less elastic.

@ Jake: Thanks for all the lessons. This is much appreciated. Indeed the jib is in our team often neglected. We should pay more attention to it. Often it starts to rattle a little, and therefore we sheet it in. We experienced very recently (after some comments from another sailor) the benefits which it could have.

About the sheeting in part: Last year we decided to go for a newer sail on our Inter 18 when we needed to replace it. Due to the large top, the foot of the sail is shorter, and we had to find a way to connect it to the boom. The sail works out quite good, however the connection could be a little better (shorter) Now I have the feeling we loose about 50 to 90 mm there (2-4 inches). And indeed sometimes I have the feeling that I can use it on the sheet. So we have to look for another modification there (maybe replace the boom)

Do you have a pic of your setup for the mainsheet to boom/sail connection?

Yes I have (more or less)

We connected 3 loops of rope around the boom, and another loop is connected to the old connection point which is able to move back and foreward along the boom, so we have some tension there. However as mentioned, I have the feeling I could use another 2 inches on the sheet, so a little shorter would be nice.

If you sheet that as hard as you should be, you may break the boom. On the older style Nacra 20 (with the same boom), our boom would look like a banana when sailing upwind in 15-18. That was with the tack of the sail much closer to the sheet connection point than what you have had to do there.

You have a tricky situation with that sail. If you move the blocks forward, you lose the angle that puts some forward pressure on the boom and induces mast rotation. The F18 sail is probably an improvement but you'll likely need something custom (or modify that sail) to really get it dialed in....or beef up the boom.

please check the connection point from jib to the sheet. If you mount the sheet two holes of the plate higher you bring more tension to the luff and the jib will be more powerful

If the jib was designed for this boat, that is <img src="<>/smirk.gif" alt="smirk" title="smirk" height="15" width="15" />

This picture is from last year. During the winter we indeed changed the connection two holes!

A little off topic, but I do not want to open a complete new topic:

During our sailing last weekend we had a little too much wind (for us). We had 19-20 knots with gusts to 25 knots. Lots of water flushed over the trampoline eventhough we were on one hull all the time.

A small

problem

which we already experienced before, came up again. The mainsheet (which is also the travelersheet on the other end) flushed overboard all the time. When sheeting in as the crew, I do not want to keep the complete sheet in my hands all the time as I need my hands for sheeting in. Therefore the rest is on the trampoline. Do you have a trick to keep it there?

We set up our mainsheet to be as short as possible and still be functional. I'll lay the slack across my body and at most the line just kisses the top of the water. You can also try handing the slack off to your skipper, it's not like they are doing all that much, how many hands does it take to hold a tiller? I know it's an imposistion for them but they usually get over it... sort of.

UUmmm, I don't recommend this.

I tried it last weekend during Space Coast 45 as I needed to go leeward and clear a block.

"WHAT, You want me to hold that NOW?

I agree with this. My mainsheet is not an inch too long and when sheeted, there isn't enough slack for it to get out of control. One or two wraps on my hand and I can kick the slack back up on the trampoline with my foot (it can barely get to the water). I've been known to put a longer mainsheet on the boat when distance racing on days that are expected be very windy and very reachy but I haven't done that in a long time.

I spend this last sunday also on the water (Northsea); like you said much wind (above 20 kn and gusts above 25). I had a marvelous time since long ago ( I've spoiled so many sailing days lately with trying to learn kitesurfing)

Anyway, I don't understand your question exactly. Don't you want to have both ends of the mainsheet in your two hands? But you are the crew member with the sheets?
I always sail single-handed and have the sail-side end of the sheet in the front hand and the rudderstick and the traveller-end of the sheet combined in the back hand.

That's why I made a handle at the end of the stick. It makes it easier to grab it together with a sheet. By the way I loop the slack of the sheet in so many nooses hanging in my backhand as necessary. Both ends of the mainsheet stand taut in the camcleat. So they can be released in one strike with the hand.

Especially in circumstances like this sunday, I'm very keen on this sheet-handling.

I do have a problem with my jib sheet though. When I hit very big waves too fast, now and then the jibsheet will jump out of the cleat because the jibsheet will bounce and even fly on the tramp and release itself.

Hey, I didn't say there wouldn't be push back. Most skippers haven't touched a line in a very long time so it probably scares them a little bit and you need to be sensitive to that you know how delicate they are.

Blondie reminded me that she also injected:

Actually, I think I also asked you WHY? WHY DO YOU WANT ME TO HOLD THAT NOW?"