US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day.

stop jumping on the bright shinny object.... broken masts.... or another round of bashing Nacra build quality ...

The fact is the breeze was measured 18 to 23 with gusts... measured by Bounds and confirmed by the weather buoy..
The issue... Why are so many masts finding the bottom? Why were so many teams on the beach or in the hospital... The conditions were below the class max of 25... (Hell they had a medal race in Tornado's in 25 to 30 with gusts...)

My answer... ISAF ego by members of the technical committee stopped nacra from adding t foils after the carbon mast snafu was solved ...

The politically incorrect move is to lower the wind max to 20 or 22 and just err on the safety side till the next quad.
The game is sailboat racing... not survivor...
When almost half the fleet of pros punts.. Its not sailboat racing.... its a mistake founded in ego.

so...stop killing the fleet for no reason.... half the fleet made the call to bail because the ultimate goal is Rio and its not likely to blow stink there.

And... you've got to finish before you can win.

If you destroy your boat, well, you're out.

Do we know the masts broke from hitting the bottom, or are we just guessing?

Funny this all got stirred up again by a bot post <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Perhaps explain

youth sized

?

My understanding from lots of other threads is that by weight/size, most USA/north american crews are a lot bigger/heavier than crews from other nations?

So

Youth size

to an American may be best suited for a Chinese team which weighs somewhat less?

Of course, these same countries competed rather well on the T boats, but I believe the move the the 17 foot version was that the T

isn't female/smaller crew friendly

?

Kinda feels like a circular argument...

I'm sure the teams would be able to tell us if the masts broke before or after the boat went over.

Educated guess based on having sailed on the Bay a bunch and reading reports of turtled boats. I could be wrong.

Shallow water in Florida? Who knew... <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" /> But we're kinda taking that's what broke them as fact, when we don't know. That's all I'm saying.

Is there a sealed mast (buoyant) rule in place for the N17?

Surely someone has JC on speed dial and can resolve this quickly.

The bottom is a hard, clayey sand - and only 10-15 ft. down.

On Monday, the waves were 2x4's - 2 ft high and 4 ft apart.

When boats go down the mine like this in those conditions, it's a pretty safe assumption the bottom is the culprit for a broken mast:

It was pretty windy Monday. I just checked the Dinner Key light for the time they were racing and it shows plenty of puffs over 30. When the mark boat was reporting 22 the GBR coachboat with calibrated wind instruments on an fixed 8 foot mast was reading a puff of 32. I would go with that number. As far as if the masts failed on impact or from contact with the bottom the team I rescued did not really know but they said it happened really fast. I did not see any mud on the top of their sail.
This is the first time I saw the N17s race in person and was very impressed at how easily the top teams are sailing them.

It is interesting to read when ISAF conducted the trials for the multihull the Nacra was not tested in the capsize test http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/MultihullEvaluationAppendix2SailorBoatFeedbackDataV21-[12459].pdf

If I remember there was a long letter from one of the Olympic sailors at the trials saying Nacra had broken the mast previously . They thought it should have been tested in the capsize. Knowing Nacra they would have done a lot more testing before the carbon masts were released to the public.

As for the changing to foils again I think some research will show that would be a major change. ISAF which is controlled by all the national authorities of sailing don't do major changes in a 4 year cycle. I remember Tornado wanting changes and it was rejected as it was mis Olympic cycle. After Brazil then there will be changes and then a lot of countries that have invested in a new boat will complain. The idea is not to change boats and equipment to reduce the costs of sailing.

I think that is why ISAF agreed to the submission http://www.sailing.org/tools/docume... nandBeyondEventsandEquipmentRegulations-[15564].pdf which locks the classes in for 8 years.

Just a little bit of research shows there seemed to be a problem with Nacra mast even at the trials. That equipment is locked in for 8 years. Though there can be changes after the Olympics.Whether countries will allow the change after investing in a new design would be another question.

Sorry the links don't seem to format properly you will have to copy and paste in your browser.

I think we're being a little over-critical here...I would expect the same kind of damage result from any of the top catamaran racing classes in that kind of breeze. Would I hate to have that kind of break down? Absolutely. The expense is really what stings teams that are trying to string together a campaign (which is a lot of them - this crap is expensive). I really have a lot of respect for anyone competing at this level but I also feel like I should point out that someone is winning even through all of the pain. As a competitor I would look at those people and try to figure out what they are doing differently? I still feel like we should be championing the fact that there are multihulls involved at all.

As far as capsize testing, I don't even think the N17 had anything close to this mast during the evaluation phase - so it wouldn't have mattered.

If this kind of result is to be avoided, we (I use that term broadly) need to decide if the boats are to be made more bullet proof, capsize resistant, or if the wind limits should be reduced.

Class rules are 25 sustained... Puffs don't count.. per the rules. The conditions on Key Biscayne sound normal for North America with a front coming through.... High teens to low 20s with 10 knot puffs rolling down the course... The puffs are always the issue ...

BUT.... do you want to argue that the F18s would have been on the beach... We know the Tornado's would have been fine.. Nacra 20s race up the Atlantic coast for 1000 miles and don't blow up or kill their crews. Hobie 16s go racing with far less professional fleets top to bottom in those conditions.

How can you argue that the boats are seaworthy in these

by defintion

RACING conditions.

Suck it up... lower the wind max and race sailboats... not play survivor... or who's got the most spare parts in their trailer.

Just based on the numbers it looks like the top of the fleet was doing more than just surviving. Clearly some of the teams have the boat figured out.

Not taking sides here, but Mark, that post completely contradicts itself. Hobie 16 masts don't survive in 20 feet of water, either. People learn how to race them without capsizing. At this level of competition, that means in 20+ knots of breeze.

I'm not rooting for anyone other than the USA, but it's pretty obvious, at least from the results that are pretty consistent from regatta to regatta by now, that there are several teams who have figured out how to thrive on this boat. Sadly, none of them live here...

Mike

Mike... the point is not... will masts break in 15 to 20 feet of water... (Of course they will)..

The point is definitely NOT has the boat been figured out by some people... (Yes it has)..

The point is... the boat is UNSTABLE so that BAD LUCK knocks out teams WHO DO KNOW HOW TO SAIL THE BEAST...

The key question... WHY would you want to use a boat that favors the lucky?

Take JC.... do you think he doesn't know how to sail the damn boat... or was he just unlucky?

Now... some teams were unlucky and then could not get a replacement mast... their game was over. (how many spare parts do you need to backstop a world event??? 5 masts were not enough so that is a legit issue.)

Some teams were unlucky and did time in the hospital.. (How lucky do you have to be to race N17s? ...Notice the number of helmets being worn... Wonder why this fleet is so much different then other beach cats...)

Mark Mendelblatt has done TWO Olympics in other boats... do you think he can't sail the damn boat... He opted to hit the beach!

Bill Roberts... the designer of the Supercats and RC 27s... and Goran Marstorm (Builder of Tornados) nailed the core philosophy...

You want a boat for the Olympics that is technically challenging to sail FAST...... a formula 1 like boat.. so that SAILING SKILL determines the gold medal.
You don't want to race the family car....Not enough refinement to test sailing skill... Luck is too much a factor in the race.
You also don't want a boat that is unstable .. and just an issue to SAIL pointy end up in standard conditions of a front passing through BAD LUCK using an unstable boat should not be part of the game.

I get it... Gen Xers disagreed with me when the N17s issues became apparent. ...They think its a skill thing... They were wrong. After 2 years of training on the boat...ALL of the international teams should have been racing hard... not half of them on the beach.

The only fair solution in the last two years of the quad is to lower the wind max.. You minimize the safety issues and take BAD LUCK (due to the boat) out of the competition as best you can.

Mark - JC was having a bad week. His best race - a 26th - was the last one - that had the lightest wind. I watched him cross the line every time he finished and he was not a happy guy. It's a way different game when you're the nut on the tiller than the muscle in the front of the boat.

The boat is not UNSTABLE (as you put it). It's certainly twitchier than an F-18 (that weighs 50 kg more), but the photos of the boat leaping out of the water are not representative of the boat's general performance. I never once saw a boat do that in Miami. I saw more of that with the

foiling

A-Class cats at the Alter Cup.

Only 3 of the top 27 teams overall had two letter scores racing in the extreme conditions on Monday.

Bottom line - the USA sucks in this class (in comparison to the rest of the world).

Matt

Obviously the US Sailors are working on raising their game... The US put a handful of sailors into the medal round. They knew it could take 8 years to be competitive. Hope springs eternal.

RE the N17
What accounts for the International Fleet getting blitzed in the big breeze?

Not all international teams are created equal. Quit being obtuse Mark.

Ah... Dave that is your judgement.... I would judge the INT. N17 fleet shipping their boats around the world to gold cup events as being above the threshold of

competent

YMMV of course.

What could happen is that Organizing authorities figure out that they face real liability issues. They could decide that they don't have sufficient safety boats and personnel on the course and pull the plug on racing N17s.

Alternatively

It takes a PRO with guts and experience to make these calls against the wishes of the Organizing Authority..
I saw Paul Ulibara make this call in Miami at an OCR. He based the call on conditions and the lack of support boats provided by the OA.... I watched the OA sputter in protest. I heard about the euro event where the T Fleet supported PUs call on the water the day before and his subsequent replacement by opting to not leave the dock....

This is a judgement call made by a guy with balls and great judgement ..

Nevertheless... it is ALWAYS BETTER to set the expectations before hand.... So... a policy change is far better then counting on the judgements of OAs and PRO's who have lots of conflicting interests.

Not in the N17 class in Miami. That's what we're talking about, right? The highest placing US sailor was Mike Easton in 21st. Not bad, given his limited experience with the boat, but not good enough for the medal race.

WTheF are you talking about? Most of the

International Fleet

was able to handle the breeze.

Re: the decision to race - PU had some serious balls to go against the Miami OA - and was lucky he had the support of the T sailors. He got invited back only because he really was (is) that good. A move like that by a course RO now would get you a nice

thank-you, your services are no longer needed

note for not being a

team player

.

Yup... a conflict of interest ... My point... its best to resolve this before you get on the water.

So.... the current status..

Team Player

trumps Safety and Excellence in Race Management...

What do people think will happen when somebody dies?

Here are some recent examples!
Answer: The US Coast Guard went nuts on OA race management for

coastal

distance races and now regulate them as OFF SHORE events after the pacific north west accident... Now... the Down the Bay race on the Chesapeake requires offshore gear. IE $$$$ or you break the rules/cheat (grin).

Answer: Severn Sailing has a member's kid die in a 420 racing accident and now they use Hobie Bobs... no spinakers and have deemphasized their two person 420 junior racing program in Annapolis.

Answer: the America's cup OA puts in wind limits to manage the racing after a boat blows up and a pro sailor dies... even tho... it was probably a design flaw at the root of it.

What do you think happens?

(Oh... and this is before the US legal system takes over and assesses liability and then the insurance industry assigns responsibility and $$$)

We do have some experience with this... The Tornado fleet did have an Olympic level sailor die in a turtle capsize after being stuck in the rigging in an ISAF event overseas. The outcome was compartmentalized and forgotten... Will that work in a North American context?

Matt and Ding have made my points with regard to the fleet/design.

Mark, while I disagree with you on the boat design, you make excellent points on the fallout of disasters. I've said it here before, everyone is Mr. Macho about taking their own risks, but as soon as someone dies, it's a race between the family's lawyers filing lawsuits vs. the Coast Guard calling US Sailing HQ. Nothing good happens after that, which is why we (ROs) try so hard to avoid ending up there (aside from wanting our friends/fellow sailors to be safe).

Support boats are a real issue for OA vs. ROs, at all levels of the game. Sad to see it at this level, especially with the history.

Don't get me started on the hypocrisy with the trapeze safety systems/rules.

Mike

Just a twinge dramatic don't you think?

Dramatic...

I don't know about that... (See the Tornado result)

The immense sadness at organizational junior meetings after Olivia died in a 420 accident was profound. I got the impact of all of the decisions made or dismissed or poo pooed and 99.9 percent of the time... they are not important... BUT... for that .1 percent of the time... You really want to know that you thought these issues out... and made a considered judgement.

Take the example of Robbie Daniel paddling about on the race course for 30 minutes before being spotted this year... Does the event have an adequate Safety program in place?

Now consider the usual racing rule... no radio communication gear allowed.. Hmm... That is a policy decision that could kill somebody... Is there an adequate safety program in place?

In Newport this past summer... a 505 team picked up an A cat buddy of mine after 20 minutes swimming/lost at sea??.... Of course the nitwit A Cat PRO... was clueless that one of his sailors was swimming..

The A class had that ridiculous rule as well... St Francis and the A class leadership changed that for their upcoming NA's.

Will it make a difference.... 99.9% of the time... probably not... I think its good judgement to plan for that .1% of the time. And do smart things.

Drama gets your attention... what you do with the facts is about judgement.

When being a good team player trumps safety and race management... I have some issues... and choose to be a PIA.

Mark,

Please provide the A Cat rule that forbids carrying radios, I don't see that in the class rules.

Most classes allow radios to be carried for emergencies, but forbid their use during (and usually before) racing.

Rules or no rules, I'll never get on a boat without a VHF attached to my person. 13.5 hours overnight on the bottom of a turtled cat leaves an impression...

Mike

NACRA 17 news

Guess they did not sail in Clearwater today.

http://global.iwindsurf.com/map#27.464,-82.365,9,1,!98676,1

Jill again,

We hate to brag about Clearwater with it being our home town but Clearwater has just run a school on how to do an event for the N17, 49r and Fx Classes. Everything that was such a dissapointment for these classes with the last event in Miami was made up for by the Clearwater event.

The racing was great, the venue was fabulous....Plenty of parking, hot showers, real toilets with toilet paper (we don't ask for much!), plenty of shelter inside and out. A very aware race committe that kept us all safe with a proper amount of safety boats. Coach boat parking... THEN IT GOT EVEN BETTER ....for less than $200.00 for early registration fee, you got a T shirt, they passed out sandwhiches on the water each day, then at night had food enough to feed an army every day for FREE! Each racer had a crediential pass that got the racers and coaches free transportation along the beach on the Jolly Trolly, free entry into the Clearwater Marine Aquarium where they met Winter, the famous dolphin from the movie Dolphin Tail and Dolphin Tail 2.

Keep in mind, Clearwater Community Sailing Center is a small club with a REALLY BIG heart for getting things done! This year was a warm up for next year when they host the worlds for this group. I think the Classes have chosen wizely. Clearwater has been the best kept sailing secret for years.

Many international teams use the Center already for their training since we have great sailing all year round. You can count our bad sailing days....not many! The water access is great and can offer a variety of conditions between the bay and the Gulf of Mexico.

All I can say is GOOD ON YOU! Clearwater Community Sailing Center....JOB WELL DONE!