I'm not hiding Mike - I wish you well in the venture, but all you need to do is read what has been written about the event or talk to the guy who wrote the deed and landed Bill Jolley as our benefactor. The name Alter is not synonymous with handicap racing, my friend.
Carry on.
Jake you withdrew your post
I did want to add the following
Premier event is about how well manged the regatta is. Props to all those including your self for making the regatta a first class... indeed premier regatta year after year in the past.
The problem is.. This championship is supposed to be a benefit of US Sailing Membership. The fundamental problem is that 6 out of 10 areas Don't give a damn about the regatta using this format and and don't even hold the first round of the championship.... This benefit has minimal value to the rank and file. The championship has been failing at its core mission for years and years. The BS that John Williams speaks of is not the fundamental problem.. The BS is just the reason that this years spring event was cancelled and the scramble is on for a fall regatta save.
The question is... What should be done moving forward... beyond the fubar of the 2012 championship this fall
Jake and JW propose continuing with an
elite
selection process for a One design class of 10 charter boats with no boat customization because of rotation. Variations of this idea believe that the Area championships can be incorporated.
I propose BYOB in a handicap class
like 2 person spinnaker class
with 10 charters available for those who win their area championship.
I have an agenda. JW, Jake and Dave all have their favorite agendas.
Kudo's to Mike L who is trying to get a true read on what the rank and file want from their US Sailing Championship benefit and is not bringing an agenda.
I don't have an agenda, Mark, other than to push back against the notion that the event was a failure. You state flatly that the core mission was to benefit US Sailing, but I am certain that isn't what the volunteers believed was foremost. The mission was defined by the people that put the event on each year, and as Mike guesses, that mission evolved a bit over time as committee members came and went. But it seemed to me, for the time I was involved, to be grounded in the idea of producing a level playing field for the finals. You seem to think me, Jake and Dave are somehow in collusion - the only thing we all had in common was that we were chair of the adult event. We all three brought different ideas to the table, did our thing and moved on. We haven't even really discussed the current state of affairs, as we have each taken our turn and stepped aside. I don't remember you being there. I recall you vociferously declining the Area Rep position for several years.
Further, I didn't propose anything - I think what we had succeeded. But what we had isn't currently possible. Folks are looking for a way forward and that is fine. I'm sincerely glad for that and share in the hail for kudos.
John,
I know you mean well and have a long history with the event. What I am simply saying is that regardless of what people
think
the event is, the governing documents do not hold us to one-design, regardless of past events, or your personal history, trials and tribulations.
As for the name Alter equals one-design, well not exactly. I know that's what he built the sport on, but ask any non-cat sailor what Hobie means, and they say catamarans. Many people here have commented over the years that no matter what brand of boat they are on, they are occasionally referred to as Hobies.
Only Hobie Cat racers identify this with one-design racing. Most of the outside world doesn't even know that we have organized racing, of any kind.
And let's face it, it's not cat sailors that are running US Sailing, so we have to educate them.
Don't shoot the messenger, I am just trying to clear the air and stop the false perceptions, because they can only serve to make us fail.
Just as everyone here freaks out if US Sailing says something can't be done but can't point to a governing document, the same is true in reverse. We can't demand a one-design event if the deed doesn't require it.
There may be other ways to get there, but first we have to prove that the majority of cat sailors want that, and again, that is why we have the survey. Contrary to the egos here, it is entirely possible that there are a lot of cat sailors in the US that don't post here, and don't feel the same way you do.
I will support the results of the survey. I've said it before, that could mean: No change, complete rework, or something in between. Of course I have an idea of what I would like (and it would probably shock most of you who are desperately trying to pin me down), but it is not my job to push my own personal agenda.
Mike
cool it.
Damnit John! I was going to tell them someone called my mom. Oh BTW, you need to stop calling my mom, that's just wrong.
She's a sweet lady, and she just misses you so much.
I hope we get a 2012 event. I hope the event continues in years to come. I filled out the survey, Shared the survey, and did my part.
I missed the qualifier last year due to the F-18 NAC's but already have the qualifier on my schedule this year.
If they change the event format I will still do the qualifier. I sail because I like to sail, and race because I like the competition and the people I race with.
Can we look at the betterment of the sport and drop our personal agendas?
MEMBERS!!! .... Its a MEMBERS BENEFIT...that they don't appreciate or want it. ..
We have had these debates 5 years ago.... the members did not want the benefit then...
I decline the Area Rep job because I don't have ANY support for delivering this member benefit. Mark S moved on... I had no choice. I did my best to run all flavors of this Area championship..... the dog won't eat it. I have a place holder event in place for this year which requires a minimal commitment on the YC part.
You make the case for the ultimate in one design regattas, an absolutely level playing field for the US Sailing championships... My area is hyper one design with A cats, Hobie 16, 17 and 18's having very active one design racing.... THEY DON'T WANT IT ... they don't buy the Ultimate one design championship regatta with level playing field as important. You needed another angle.... or better disciples who would have spread the message about the championship.
No matter how successful the championship regatta was for all those who put it on and competed.... the fact is...the membership support was declining. It's not personal or a reflection on the people who run the championship... it's just a reality.
You think the the event succeed.. The water part is only half the game and the event has been loosing support for years. I draw a different conclusion as to it's success.
So, maybe a change in format will get more support... I told you privately at least 5 years ago... without the one design classes getting fully behind the USSA championships that they would struggle getting rank and file support. The same story pertains now.. without the one design classes supporting a new model for the championship... they will crater again.
You don't have the agenda of supporting the current format and think it was successful ???
yes, I withdrew my post. It wasn't very level headed...but the thought that you can never have a true championship because of who might or might not show up is ridiculous and it does a dis-service to anyone that has won a championship or anyone that strives to.
This event was designed to be the pinnacle of multihull sailing within the US. You win, and you get your name engraved on a perpetual trophy that has a long list of great champions engraved on that trophy. It does not take away from the achievement if Charlie Ogletree, Pete Melvin, or anybody else doesn't attend. You have won the event. You have beat all comers. Your name goes on that trophy along with the best of the best sailing multihulls in the US. Not all
championships
are equal or the same over time. Certainly winning a 2 boat Nacra 5.2 championship doesn't carry the same weight as winning a 50 boat F18 championship....but it doesn't change the fact that it is a
championship
.
With regards to how this event is run, it's been tricky but we have had some very good and hotly contested events. The boats have been great. I want to keep having shots to compete myself. I'm not opposed to trying different things - but I do believe that this regatta needs to remain unique and special for it to be what it was intended to be. There also seems to be some conversation here about making the event more accessible to the casual sailor to make it more successful or more relevant. I think it's important to understand that it really has been quite accessible. We've run out of petitions for the event at times int he past and have had to resort to calling in
invites
. Petitions have always come first. This does say something about the event - and it also says something about US sailing/multihull relationship.
I would rather hear from the competitive sailors in the areas that have very poor qualifier attendance as to why they don't care to make it to the
big show
?
Define competitive. It should be a very short list.
http://championships.ussailing.org/...
A quick search did not reveal a list of past champions. Does anyone have a link?
We have had these debates 5 years ago.... the members did not want the benefit then...
What is the benefit to 98% of the members other than to spectate? I resent being a puppet and encouraged to compete in a qualifier that is handicapped with a broken system. Even then, the system will grant petitions to those that did not win or even participate in a qualifier but are some of the best sailors racing catamarans and most likely squeeze out most of the recreational racers that do qualify from even getting near the podium.
Let it be elite and not be ashamed of it. Just don't try to coerce the 98% of us to participate in a dog and pony show of qualifiers and chastise us for not buying into it. Let it be class champions and petitions. Let it be an opportunity for manufacturers to promote their boat. What a great opportunity to get national exposure (especially for new models) and into the fleets through discounted Alter Cup boat sales.
I have followed the Alter Cup since only 2007 and have complete admiration for the volunteers, clubs, and manufacturers that have participated. A lot of uncompensated blood, sweat, and tears. If there is something wrong, we should listen to them because it is amazing how little is shared.
BTW, someone needs to interview Liz! What is she forming her opinion on? It could give us a perspective that we need to be aware of.
Back in the dark ages when the multihull council was first formed at USYRU I started the multihull championshp with a two fold purpose in mind. First it was to give the sailors a connection to the governing body of sailing in the US (USYRU). The other was to show USYRU that multihulls were no different than the rest of the sailing community by patterning the event after the existing championships (10 teams/10 boats). The 10 teams from the ten areas gave sailors from regions where multihulls were not prevelent a chance to compete at the national level. It was not meant to the best sailor in the country, but the best sailor of the ten regions.
Since that time the event has gone far afield from the original concept with the expansion to 20 teams invitations and petitions. It's time to take a good hard look to see how to make it an event to strive for again. If not it's had a good long run.
I'm listening Gordon. You've been there and done it all.
big show
?
OK, I'll bite on this one.
I've competed in at least a couple of qualifiers in Area E. I won't go out of my way to do it again as long as the qualifiers are raced handicap, since certain boats prevalent in this area have gift ratings (Inter 17/NACRA F17). With a wide range of DPNs, it's more often the boat/conditions that determine the winner, not the skill of the sailor. I'm not going to waste my precious regatta time tilting at windmills in a Hobie 16. My perception is that the whole event is skewed towards spinnaker boats, which may be the hot thing now, but do not represent the vast majority of catamaran racers in this country (and I've got the data to prove that).
While recently the finals may be considered a
success
(although having to resort to
invitees
to fill the available spots speaks otherwise), the regional qualifiers have been less than successful with few exceptions (most notably in the south east - coincidentally the core participants on this site).
Do you see anything inherently unsound about holding the Alter Cup Championship on H16s that are either owned by the individual sailors or chartered specifically for the event?
Do you see anything inherently unsound about permitting sailors to tune their boats to their own liking?
big show
?
OK, I'll bite on this one.
I've competed in at least a couple of qualifiers in Area E. I won't go out of my way to do it again as long as the qualifiers are raced handicap, since certain boats prevalent in this area have gift ratings (Inter 17/NACRA F17). With a wide range of DPNs, it's more often the boat/conditions that determine the winner, not the skill of the sailor. I'm not going to waste my precious regatta time tilting at windmills in a Hobie 16. My perception is that the whole event is skewed towards spinnaker boats, which may be the hot thing now, but do not represent the vast majority of catamaran racers in this country (and I've got the data to prove that).
While recently the finals may be considered a
success
(although having to resort to
invitees
to fill the available spots speaks otherwise), the regional qualifiers have been less than successful with few exceptions (most notably in the south east - coincidentally the core participants on this site).
Matt, that's food for thought. Coupled with Gordy's response, perhaps I have it wrong and this event should just serve as a conduit between US Sailing and multihull sailors.
The spin boat bend really has less to do with any bias in the sailors but more to do with what boats manufacturers are willing to provide. In nearly all cases, manufacturers have provided newly marketed platforms ... and we're not seeing many of those that are not spin boats.
I'm also not completely sure I agree with the spin boat bias in the handicap system though I do agree that all rating systems struggle to account for varying conditions. I have been competitive against a spin boat fleet with my a-cat, though I know it's no Hobie 16.
Regardless, you can still petition to enter the event (attending your qualifier should carry some weight on the petition...but still, if they are running out, it's a shoe-in) - why has that avenue not been attractive?
Spinnaker boats put a high emphasis on the crew. I sold my F18 mainly because I couldn't sail competitively with my usual crew (wife or daughter, and all my other friends had their own boats and their own crew issues). I guess it boiled down to I didn't want to take the time to recruit a crew, train with them (on a platform I didn't have access to), and then take the time off to actually attend the event - when I'm already taking off up to 4 - 5 weeks to attend other events either as a competitor or race officer.
If the championship was in singlehanded boats, I'd be all over it.
As a past competitor I like the current format. I'm not a fan of US Sailing and their non support of our championship. Seems to me that US Sailing would help us and support our championship in anyway possible. Not just ask us to pay US Sailing for the priviledge to run their championship.
The championship has become better every year that I've been there. I particularly liked the fact that we had younger sailors from a few areas at the last championship that could sail in the top of the fleet. It was great to see these younger teams kicking my butt.
I can go to a Portsmouth race any weekend I want. Why would I want to travel across the country to attend one. The Altercup gets the best teams because they can fly in and not have to haul their boat across the country. Having it in the Spring keeps it from competing with Nationals.
They should never own boats to have it on. The boats change every year and continue to improve. When I started competing I thought the boats had peaked 20 years ago on my Prindle 19. They have come a long way since then. The new curved foils are obviously the new thing that will certainly be finding it's way into our boats in the near future.
Good luck and get out there and find a manufacturer that will help provide boats. I have bought Altercup boats before to help support the cause after the event. I don't recall any event where the dealer got stuck with boats he couldn't sell.
Mike brings us back to the format discussion with some valid points. Should it be different than your local flavor of regatta? Having a BYOB event does restrict you to a regional type event too. I certainly would have never competed in Long Beach in '05 if I had to bring my own boat.
Okay, you want to know who the baddest multihull sailor is? You're going to have to prove your mettle on multiple platforms in multiple locations.
So, three 5 day SMOD regattas in one year. Florida on supplied F16 at T-winds, maybe Michigan in June on F18, and California in the fall on F20
Maybe a fourth regatta on H16 since everyone seems to hold that as the pinnacle of non-spin cats?
Whoever gets the best score on all regattas is champ. Make it a two year run-up cycle so there's time to secure the manufacturer participation and competitor elimination series
That's undoable. How many of those regattas do you have the time and money to attend?
remember, these are the championship caliber competitors, not us hacks who might get a wild card entry.
A lot of these guys travel a boatload already in their respective classes, so I don't think this would take that much more effort on their part.
It would, however, take a great deal of extra work on the organizer's side, which is why it might be more feasable to make the championship a bi-annual event.
But think of the notariety to the winner- you would practially eliminate the
Yeah, but...
argument from some guy in a different boat size/type. They were the best on a bunch of different boats. You'd have a good supply of slightly used boats of different sizes.
Heck, maybe some of these championships could be run concurrently with the NAs?
<img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
Hmmmmm….. thank you Gordon for putting this all back into perspective.
If the goal is to have a “prestigious” US Sailing Multihull event, run it exactly like the qualifiers by using the US Sailing P/N. And, only include the area champions; no others. The idea is to not water down the event with petitions. Make the sailors yearning to become area champions and Alter Cup champions earn the spot. Have the buy-in from the established classes on a date that does not interfere with other national or North American championships. You could make it the second week in the same month each year and have a 3 day regatta utilizing a federal holiday to offset travel commitments.
Example. Area D South is run under the current p/n tables and won by an A cat (current format). That skipper goes to the big show with his boat. Area D North is run under the same tables and is won by a 2-up F16. That crew takes their boat and goes to the show. Etc, etc until all the area championships are held. In the event an area does not have a championship, the Area rep petitions his constituents for their slot. If none step up, then they are not represented in the show.
Compliance. At the area championships and the big race, all boats must be class legal for their assigned number. An A cat must produce the certificates (both boat and sail) for the event conforming to class rules. An F16 and F18 must do the same with no exceptions. Any boat requiring a measured certificate in the class rules must produce the forms or simply not race. All other class boat compliance is left up to the owners and competitors to enforce. All sailors must be US Sailing members at the area championship and Alter Cup.
This event format will be easy to administer using current scoring software. And as others have pointed out, economics simply cannot support 10 or more brand new boats and support personnel anymore.
Let’s talk costs. No more charter fees or damage deposits. Everyone is required to have ample insurance. Hopefully the registration fee is not astronomical. All of a sudden your regatta costs are affordable again. Logistics for the hosting club should be no more burdensome than a 3 day weekend regatta. Another cost saving measure is to have the hosting yacht club open it’s membership doors for sailor housing. It has worked in the past. Yes, you still have to get there but you still have to get there!
Trophies. Besides having the 3 medals and the winners name(s) engraved on the beautiful trophy, the winner(s) get to proudly wear either a collared polo or some type of clothing stating they are the 20XX US Sailing Multihull Champions.
Class champions: You have your nationals or North Americans each year. This is THE ALTER CUP!
This will work and everybody at the big race gets to race every race. The 2013 Alter Cup can happen next year! Realistically, 2012 is gone with all the schedules already in place.
Bob Curry, THE 1994 Alter Cup Champion
<img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
I have also proposed (SA) an option that is a One Design championship in one of three disciplines (single handed, double handed sloop, double handed spin) 10 charter boats are available from a builder. The championship is fed by One design Qualifiers. The qualifiers are one design racing held in the dominant one design class in the area (and that class should try to make a charter ($$$)available to a sailor who would like to compete in the qualifier. )
EG. the championship rotation is double handed sloop in 2013. The manufacturer is Nacra, They offer to provide 10 new F16's. The championship will be held on Nacra F16's without spin. Area C would hold a qualifier in double handed sloop. The Hobie 16 turnout is greater then the Hobie 18 turnout in Area C. Area C picks a Hobie 16 regatta for the qualifier (and they should attempt to make a Hobie 16 charter $$$ available to the Hobie 18 class and any other interested and qualified sailors). The winner of the Area Championships is able to race the championship.
FYI, a frequent complaint from sailors in Area C is about the rotation aspect of the championship.... They say... if they are taking a week to go racing... they want to race full time or it's not worth the time and money to compete.
The downside is that the cost for a full charter doubles. How much are you willing to pay....
Sure, it's a long shot but maybe Nacra would make 10 Nacra 17s for the Alter Cup, just to prove to the OC that they could produce 50 if called up to serve the OOOOO.
I'm holding my breath until they do.....
A little peek behind the curtain:
The 10-boat model is being challenged as to its relevance TODAY, for ALL of the championships. This is coming from the very top of US Sailing (Liz and Shannon are following orders here), and is naturally causing growing pains for the volunteers of all the other events used to the status quo.
So, contrary to what anyone here might want to think, we are not being treated differently just because we have more than one hull.
Mike
The 10-boat model is being challenged as to its relevance TODAY, for ALL of the championships. This is coming from the very top of US Sailing (Liz and Shannon are following orders here), and is naturally causing growing pains for the volunteers of all the other events used to the status quo.
So, contrary to what anyone here might want to think, we are not being treated differently just because we have more than one hull.
Mike
Would you care to expand on that? All I know about USS championships is what I've observed at Alter Cup.
The 10-boat model is being challenged as to its relevance TODAY, for ALL of the championships. This is coming from the very top of US Sailing (Liz and Shannon are following orders here), and is naturally causing growing pains for the volunteers of all the other events used to the status quo.
So, contrary to what anyone here might want to think, we are not being treated differently just because we have more than one hull.
Mike
$1000 isn't enough for them, it's not like it costs them anything! The relevance argument is bogus.
Screw what the sailors want! US Sailing is consistent I'll give them that.
Actually, it has nothing to do with money, and nothing to do with Rolex.
Attendance and interest in the events has been reportedly declining. You can dig around on the US Sailing website and look for results of other events to back that up.
For our event, this is the stated goal for Shannon and Liz:
Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors.
The question of whether that can be done with a 10-boat platform is a large part of the equation.
Mike