US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012

Yes the Hobie 16 reaction was disappointing but I'm of the opinion that a true champion can make any platform work. Having the event on a H16 does NOT diminish the championship in any way IMO. I look at someone like Greg Thomas that wouldn't shy away from doing the Alter Cup on a H16 or a spin boat and as far as I'm concerned that is the mark of a true champion. You really can't let the

SNOB's

as you put it dictate the platform chosen. You simply have to say

Dude if you're scared just say you're scared

.

Harry we aren't talking about a weekend regatta for weekend warriors, we are talking about an US Championship (which btw is open it international teams) So yes, it's held to a different standard.

Alright, let's get down to it. It's this or nothing isn't it? If that's the case go for it but please don't try to tell us it's

just as good or better

than the old format because it simply isn't.

In my opinion there is LOT and I mean LOT US Sailing could to to make the current format viable but they are too focused on other things.

Has US Sailing made any concessions on the $50 a head (skipper and crew) user fee they charge the championship? Is there any wiggle room with trying to interest sponsors outside the US Sailing sponsorship agreement? These two items alone could go a very long way in making the event more doable. Instead they suggest a BYOB DPN regatta, come on guys, really?

Well said.

So... What is the purpose of the Multihull championships and how does it serve the entire racing community.

So... I don't understand why a championship that requires geographic diversity... eg one boat from each Area.... makes sense for the USA.

For instance, Say my buddy does the F18 NA's... with 70 boats and finish in the top 10. I could understand why he would like another bite at the apple of glory in a 20 boat regatta... But why would he be interested in a regatta with an F18 sailor from CA, FL and MI etc? ... What he really wants is a second regatta with the top 20 sailors from the F18 NA's and the geographic requirement distorts the competition.

I race A cats and I do not gives a damn about either of these regattas. I certainly would not declare the second regatta winner as the best multihull sailor of the year in the states.....

The real puzzle though is I don't understand why we need two championships to sort out the top F18 champion of 2012 but that is me.

In my view... we need a championship that gets all of the double handed spin sailors competing on boats they optimized for their weight and style. Then rotate the game the next year.... If Johnny and Charlie emerge from retirement and want to show you how it's done on the big T.... great fun... don't show up... well... as you would day

Dude if you're scared just say you're scared

.

On these two points, you and I completely agree.

Yes, and despite what some people don’t want to let go of, additional sponsor logos will be allowed on the boats. However, even if we had enough money to put 20 new boats on the line, as you can see from the survey questions; the size of the event is also being challenged (is a 20-boat event relevant, etc.). I wasn't kidding when I said nothing is off the table.

Be careful what you assume. That suggestion actually came from a group of cat sailors, not anyone on the US Sailing staff.

Mike

Mark, I'm not sure why I went down this road with you, slow day at work I guess. Anyway I've already identified the major issue, if those in position don't want to address the real problem that's fine, let's do the BYOB DPN regatta so US Sailing can get their $50 a head.

Oh Mike... you worry me sometimes. Liz Walker has been beating the BYOB DPN drum from the very first day I was involved in the US Multihull Championship! So US Sailing owns that one.

Are you saying that if Gill is included in the US Sailing sponsorship agreement Zhik can also be a sponsor outside of the agreement? This is where you need to focus, work the money Mike that's what makes events happen.

Ding, you're entitled to believe whatever you want, but the survey was primarily composed of questions based on conversations that I've been having with people since October. The first time I recall hearing the BYOB DPN concept came from someone other than Liz, and that person was a cat sailor.

Gill vs. Zhik. Really? If you had lined up Volvo to be the title sponsor, do you really think they'd be OK with Toyota as a co-sponsor?

Don't try to make this something it isn't. Additional sponors are welcome, but cannot conflict with the primary sponsors. This is not unique to US Sailing or this event.

EDIT: You have dealt with sponsors for other events, right? Then you know that some agreements allow for conflicts, others do not.

This one does not allow for the conflicts. But to say that additional sponsors are not allowed is completely inaccurate. We simply need to target companies in different markets.

Mike

Dave... what you see as the big problems are truly nuts and bolts.

In Area C... Nobody gives a damn about the US Sailing Championship.

So, Depending on your point of view... this is a problem... this is not a problem or that US Sailing championships are not an issue so long as we don't spend any money on it.... therefore, have at it boys.

My position is... I don't want to get a YC to run a regatta that nobody cares to participate in.... we tried that last year.... Nobody wants to play. I have tried all variations on this qualifier theme. So... don't have Area reps attempt to run qualifiers!. change the rules. 6 out of 10 regions blew this qualifier off last year.. Change the rules!

My second position is... unless you can persuade the Area C sailors that the current format of the US Sailing championships serves a larger agenda... don't spend any money on it on their behalf.

As always... somebody has to come back from one of these events and say why it was a can't miss... must do event. We don't get that from the racers that do compete in the championship.

When I have to respond to three emails this AM asking... what the hell is this survey all about.... YOU have a problem well beyond how to finance the gig.

No matter how fantastic a job you do in running the championship event... it's relevance is cratering... This was clear prior to your issues with the system.

RE a BYOB PN event....I have heard that rumor...IMO, without a consensus on a long term championship plan... I would argue that USSA should stop that in it's tracks.. Perhaps I could support that event because some areas did have qualifiers in 2011. If those 4 sailors want to compete... I would try to make good on the commitment.

I've been told to cool it, so I'm out. But, I just couldn't resist quoting that bit of your post before leaving, it speaks to me.

Have a Hobie Day!

You can quote me on that too, I guess. <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />

Mike

Who pray tell is that?

Nevertheless... somebody better try to convince the sailors in 6 out of 10 regions that this regatta is worth supporting.

I make the same case that I always have that handicap racing is an important piece of the US racing scene... a USSA championship that supports that agenda works for me. However, should you find a way to get the One design crowd in my world fired up about any version of a US championship and I will support it.

Of course I know my opinion is well in the minority... call me a happy warrior... (not that other thing <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />)

So what's next? Who colates and interprets the responses? Will the results be made public?

I have been told that the results will be made public.

From there, two things are planned:

The Multihull Council (led by me) will review the data and prepare a long-term plan, for Jack and the Multihull Championship Committee to consider.

While that is being done, the data may also be used directly by the Multihull Championship Committee to help complete a bid package for an event for 2012. We have a very short timeframe to announce an NOR (March 15), in order to allow people to have time to plan their season.

I'm surprised that no one has asked, but the latter is the reason the survey was released now, and is only open for 5 days.

Mike

Mark,
Have you ever considered that your negative, naysaying, doomsday is now repertoire is what makes the people around you not give a crap. Think about it.

Ding, Don't be a wuss and

cool it

.
Speak your mind, many of us want to hear it and value your input , especially counter to USS.

Mike ,
where is a list of the names of the people(the committee) involved with this?
Thanks.

Good deal! Any thoughts about where and when?

Well, there are two parts to this.

MHC list is here: http://racing.ussailing.org/Multihull/Multihull_Council.htm, we will likely ask for volunteers from that group to keep it nimble.

The Multihull Championship Committee is in the process of being reconstituted, which requires approval of the US Sailing Board, and will be announced soon.

It will be published on the US Sailing website, I will provide a link to it here. Planned timeline is to coincide with the announcement of a 2012 event, March 15, as has been posted here: http://championships.ussailing.org/Adult/USMHChampionship.htm

If anyone can't see that we are trying to be as open as possible about this, call me to discuss.

Hope this helps.

Mike

I have had a couple of informal discussions with some folks about this but I'm hearing that my opinion has been relayed a little out of context...so I want to say a couple of things. I've written a post in this thread about 8 times and there is so much involved, I'm having a hard time nailing down any significant point...so I'll stick to the boat type / choice.

Whatever we do, I believe we should compare whatever outcome is being discussed with one short statement about the event. I believe the event should strive to be the premier multihull championship from which the best multihull sailors within the US are determined.

I don't believe a handicap BYOB event is very elite. It's fun to think about and if the event is on the ropes of failure, it's worth a shot to see what happens. It would also be interesting to see sailors rotate on those different boats - assuming that the types of boats are spread out evenly and we could get something close to an even rotation among boats (very difficult). I would probably participate to get a taste for it but it's going to elevate

the boat

above

the sailors

and the championship focus will be tilted toward

the boat

. Hell, the sailors already form lemon-opinions about the SMOD boats provided in the past (statistically, the boats have been proven to be exceptionally even).

I think that chartered used boats is a little better compromise but the condition and rigging of the boats is going to be very inconsistent unless an incredible amount of cash and effort is put into them...and most boat owners wouldn't dream of offering up their boat if someone is going to change lines around.

I much prefer the SMOD model we have now if it can be sustained. I got a lot of negative feedback the year Rick started talking about doing it on Hobie Waves (or Hobie 16s) although I was a fan of the idea...and still am. I would be there.

On the topic of SMOD boats, I think we've really been in a rut with the spin boats...but I also know that a lot of that is driven by what's hot and who would supply boats. I think making more wildly sweeping changes in the boat de jour would continue to make the event a little more prestigious and open to all the various

great sailors

.

I haven't had a chance to complete the survey, but will be doing it today. Just wanted to make a comment on the use of handicap for the event. Typically, I try to avoid handicap racing. I have sailed many keelboat events under both PHRF and IRC, and while some had great competition, others were just way too spread out to be fun.

Last week, I sailed the Thai Cat Regatta under Texel ratings. They used two starts, the first with Texel of 104 or less- so F18, F16, F20, A cat (w/spin), Tornado, and Spitfire. The second start was Hobie 16s, Dart 18s, 16 Squares, etc. I was actually very impressed by how close the racing was, especially between the F16s and F18s. I admit that tactically I was more concerned about the F18 subfleet, but we also made plays on other boats when appropriate. Unlike what Dave said, I felt that the regatta was less about equipment than the sailors. The winner was a three time olympian, second sails for Team Boskalis, third won a Hobie 16 youth worlds, etc.

I will be sailing in a Texel fleet again this weekend, this time on a F20carbon, and with a much more amateur fleet here in Singapore. It will give me a chance to evaluate the idea again. Is there a reason we don't use Texel in the US, seems to work very well worldwide?

Has anyone else caught the irony that the alter cup qualifiers have always been a BYOB handicap format (at least for the past 10 years). And we have a huge vocal outcry against holding the championship under the same format...

Todd.... there is a huge difference between criticism and disagreement and the Happy talk that you seem to desire.

But... campaigning for a cow pie kicking contest that you expect Dave to start.... is pretty low!

Do you have ANY thing... to contribute to the question of the USSA championship?... or do you just want to play a bad nanny debate moderator!

Jake
So which is it... premier.... Best.... or elite?

By

Premier

I assume that would be an event that supercedes NA's of the major NA classes. (F18's, A class, Hobie 16s) in the public's eye

How do you do this?
How do you expect the NA champ Hobie 16 team at 290 lbs to compete against the first place NA F18 team at 340? The teams suit the boats they race and they practice on their boat. So... you can race one design on a Hobie 16 or F18... but the inherent unfairness will not make the event

premier

.... just tilted to one team or the other.

What event EVER determines the BEST multihull sailor? If last years NA or Alter cup champion does not show up and race... is the current winner somehow diminished? .... NO! How do you determine...

Who is the best multihull sailor

? Answer: you take a vote!
You have a championship regatta and you award the trophy... that is it! the comparison game of

BEST

is a fools errand left to the internet or a bar.

What do you mean by

elite

? The current process picks 10 competitors from One design classes and petitions and one of these guys usually win the thing. So at one level... the selection committee did a good job of picking an elite (selected by committee) field... But... saying that the US championship is more elite then the A class or F18 or H16 class NA's. is not a good thing. (think Linsanity if you watch the Nicks)
The hobie 16's have an invite only regatta in Puerto Rico run by Figaroa. I am sure it's great fun and based on resume, it is a very elite regatta with tough competition... but you don't hear the H16 class hyping this regatta over the Hobie 16 NA's.

Using the principle you proscribe leads to the unsupportable mess we have now!

You would be better of just cutting out the BS... Basically you want an invite only regatta for

elite or selected

sailors. Cut out the rest of the flim flam in your guiding principle and sell that!

Dave summed up the irony of it all when he noted that the qualifiers are decided on handicap... Why all the griping about a championship on handicap?

Well done.

I have tried to take the survey a couple of times... I just don't know enough to have formed an opinion for any of the questions... I'm too new to the multihull scene.

I told Dave that I thought he was wasting his time. He may have interpreted that to mean,

cool it.

I'm not worried about me and Dave.

I think I'm wasting my time, too, but here's something to ponder anyway. The people that have made the event happen, from Gordie to Dave and everyone in between, including our beloved Darline, poured blood, sweat and tears into making it what it became. Each of them walked away frustrated, disillusioned, or fatigued. Each was told what Mike is now being told by US Sailing, and each eagerly took up the task. Mike is aware and he's taking his turn anyway, for which he has my gratitude. The punch line is this - neither Liz Walker nor Steve Wrigley ever lifted a finger for the multihull events, except to write emails. The event was always run by hosts, volunteers and manufacturers, all of whom were ill-treated for their efforts at one point or another. From beam bolts to battens, start lines to buffet lines... there has been a parade of competent, committed enthusiasts involved every year.

The events (both youth and adult) have been sustainable, quality regattas with healthy (if market weary) bank balances. Dave's dismissal boils down to the simple fact that he and his committee were focused on a quality event - they were the boots on the ground - where US Sailing was increasingly focused on the marketing of that event to sponsors to cover operating costs. Not the costs of the event mind you, nor did more than a pittance (less than 10%) of that sponsorship actually benefit the hosts. There was no way to reconcile the conflict between the purpose of the volunteers with the purpose of US Sailing.

Jake has an informed opinion as a past Championship Chair and competitor. Like Jake, my name has been tagged onto the list of people who agree with a number of ideas, including handicapped racing for the title. Like Jake, I think my opinion has been rewritten and distorted.

The Alter Cup was unique in that it was as one-design as you could get - rotated boats, no tuning allowed, absolutely and mathematically proven to be equal equipment. It took racing in a handicap event to qualify for a spot, due in part to the Ted Stevens Sports act. Some may see irony in that relationship, but the handicap racing was the path to the finals - I see this as a clear and logical progression. The trophy was named for Hobie Alter, now a Hall of Famer, for his contributions to one design sailing. I think that if the US Multihull Championship becomes a handicap event, a name change should be considered in respect for the original deed of gift and the large donation from Bill Jolley that has sustained it for so long.

It should be telling that during the last House of Delegates conference call, the new Championships Chair expressed her understanding that the multihull championship events have been very poor in the last few years. Fortunately, Jerry Montgomery (a member of ABYC) was on the call; he corrected her and explained that the event last June was fantastic - full participation, incredible manufacturer support, enthusiastic volunteers that traveled great distances to help run the event, and very happy sailors. History is written by those who are left... ours is being written by people who never once attended an event.

I wish the new cast of characters the best of luck. As I have expressed privately when asked

What do you want in an Alter Cup?

We had it already.

<****. I trust Dave.
As far as my contribution, I submitted my survey. All of this BS is just you stirring the pot .It makes no difference to US Sailing what gets said on this forum, that's already been stated. I can't believe you have the gall to say I'm starting a cow pie kicking contest (WTF) when damn near every post you put up is nothing but trolling and arguing just for the sake of arguing. You are a hypocritical douche nozzle. It's a good thing you do as much as you do for the Maryland folks.

I think it should be named after Darline. Especially if it's a handicap race .How fitting.

Being new to multihull racing, I'm not sure how much my opinion matters, but I will say that I first heard of the Alter Cup when I read about them selecting F16s for the competition.

The articles I read about the cup lead me to believe that it was a regatta that showcased new boat designs by having skilled sailors race them one design style. I really think there is a place for such a race format and based on the comments in this thread, it sounds like I was mistaken in my assumption... I think that's a shame.

Yes, the irony Mike K mentioned has been noted. I'll discuss that after the survey is closed, so we don't skew any results.

Daniel, new perspective is good. The survey isn't a popularity contest, or intended for you to answer in a way you think other people want you to answer; it's intended to get your honest opinions on what would make you want to attend (or at least, respect the event).

John makes some good points, but don't hide behind smoke and mirrors. I have read the deed, there is absolutely no mention of one design. Same is true for H/J fund. No mention of one design.

While the event has developed through the years and has strong traditions, the original governing documents do not mention one design.

No one wants to have a lame event, there are just different opinions on what makes one great. Hence, the survey.

I will make an effort to have the deed published. One of my primary goals is improved tranparency.

Mike