Altered in action - or handling a nosedive

Hell yeah!!! Action photos!! aint that boat a beauty.

Quick question, are those F16 insignias on the transmos?

Nice pictures.

Gary - Too much dagger board down. A lot less will make things less crazy in that much wind

Hey you can't get away with anything these days, spy's every where, who took these photo's?

I was just mucking around showing off to friend on F24 Tri out of picture. All dives where recovered no capsizes. Told you carbon mast was strong enough now. By the way this was in narrow straits only few hundred meters (yards) wide, check the sea state gives you an idea of wind strength.

Regards Gary.

Pull up you daggers mate, will calm down your craft.

Wouter

I can't believe the spinnaker pole didn't snap! Is it carbon or aluminum? What is Altered? Is it a home built or an "altered" A cat? Looks pretty skinny!

The mast will survive if you keep the main sheet tension on when you stuff, if you let the main sheet off the mast will (usually) snap going forward.

Hey Scooby, where in England are you? I was in Manchester on Monday, finally got my hands on a Yachts and Yachting mag.

Timbo,

Home is in &searchp=newsearch.srf&mapp=newmap.srf]Hitchin and I sail at &searchp=newsearch.srf&mapp=newmap.srf]Grafham both a fair distance from Manchester !

Gary,

From the photo's, it doesn't look like your running much rotation or reduced luff tension with the kite up.?? Is the mast that much stiffer now with the timber up the guts now or in the excitement did you forget & therefore your rig is very forgiving !!

Experience on the T tells me I go home with a broken mast if I didn't run 90 - 100 deg of rotation & reduce luff tension giving more pressure to the leech.!!

Are you going to try T-foils ??

Good luck next weekend. Phil Brander seems to be looking forward to some good racing.

Regards

Marcus

Tim,

You have asked before and I answered it for you :

Go and take a look at ;

Link to earlier reply with answers

You must really read the replies when asking questions

Wouter

Thanks Wouter, I lost the original thread question some how I could never find the question or answer!

I was thinking about cutting up a F18HT, they are for sale here in the US for about $8,500 with trailer, box and beach wheels. Cut a foot off the front and back, cut the mast down, re cut the main sail and spinnaker, but it would probably end up costing as much as buying a new boat and I don't know if you would be down to 230 from 280. The width (2.5M) is the same for both.

When I had my HT I always wished I had a shorter mast/mainsail for the windy days sailing alone.

Okay I understand.

Still I wouldn't advice cutting down an HT. Those hulls are not in high regard among designers. They are already struggling in waves; I don't think the volume is right in those hulls. Cutting pieces of won't help as well. I know for certain that cutting down a 10 mtr carbon mast to 8.5 WILL not work. Simply because it will be way to stiff (difficult to depower) and all teh reinforcements will be in the wrong place. So you would have to buy a new rig. When that happens you pretty much have to buy a new set of sails as well. That combo would set you back several thousant US$. And what will you end up with ? At boat that is a very BIG compromise when a 12.000 Blade is wooping your behind in races. Having saved 1000-2000 US4 won't be enough to cheer you up then. And there is a shitload of work involved in rebuilding as well. I say take the easy route and get on the water.

Word !

Wouter

Wooter, where is "The Haag"? Is there any cat racing there? That is where we layover when flying into Amsterdam.

Dear wouter

How come you say:
"Those hulls are not in high regard among designers"
which designers, who has said that?
"They are already struggling in waves"
Have you ever sailed a Javelin? I guess not, but I did and I was suprised how nice it was to sail through a choppy 0.5 - 1m sea, compared to my ventilo. Mutch less motion!

Have you looked at the movies from the ICCT 2003. Sometimes the conditions where there quite choppy too.

I think we should not bash other boats and designs, every boat has advantages and disadvantages. All I can tell you, that I am quite happy with my 18HT, regardless that I sailed on the Taipan and F18 in different conditions.

Hey all the best and I hope to see you in Texel!
there are allready some 18HT registered and I guess there will be even more!

BTW Timbo:
I wouldn't cut the mast, as wouter said, the mast will be way to stiff then. As the boat is designed for two.
Maybe using some of the old Inter 18 carbon masts and mainsail, if it is just for recreation sailing?
I woudn't shorten the plattform, I guess the boat would never be competitive compared to other F16, it would be to heavy.

Den Haag (The Hague) is the residency of the Dutch government (I know Amsterdam is out capitala but as you know we Dutchies are a little different sometimes)

It is a coastal city but with a really big harbour. There are 3 cat clubs there on a stretch of, I think 6 km, beach. I think they have about 200 cats combined there. To the North and south there is a cat club every 6 km or so. I think in the stretch of about 50 km with Den Haag about in the centre we have about 9 to 10 cat clubs with a total of, well about, 700 catamarans. It is the most densely populated stretch of cat sailing in the Netherlands actually. Alot of recreational sailors who don't sail that often but still 10-15 % is regulary out and racing giving rise to above 50 boat per event participation. Such would be considered a small turnout. At 100 boats or more we talk of a serious event.

Click here for a map and a list of clubs in that region:

http://www.brandingsport.nl/html/kaart_2.html

You can click on the club names/towns to go to the websites of the clubs.

Schiphol airport is right under that canal that runs from west to east in the upper right corner of the map. It is right there where the canal originates in that body of water in the east. Zandvoort (my club) is almost perfect west of schiphol. The Hague is south-west of schiphol. Funny that you are stationed in the hague and not in Amsterdam itself.

Anyway when are you there , in Den Haag (The Hague) ? Not be any chance around 13-16 may ? North sea regatta ? If you are there on 7 may you can see the 80 cats pass in a long distance race that is held then.

When in the hague go to Scheveningen that is where the beach is. In the North you have Cat club Noorder strand (Cat club North beach), In the south you have catclub Kijkduin (Catclub view dune as in panorama). There is one in the middle also but I've not been there or know its name.

It is about 25 miles from where I live.

We still must grap that beer.

Wouter

Andreas,

I'm not going to name names, but make several guesses and you will most probably have guessed right in all cases. Also I've received several comments of jav 2 sailors and "rear beam slapping the waves" and "holding back on downwind due to insufficient volume in the bow" are recurring comments. Also Will Sunnocks was quite vocal on the internet after doing the Tybee 500 on a jav2. Add to this the comments on the HT website itself and all the mods to the gunboat and I think you will understand what I use as basis for these comments. Also the mathematics don't work out well when shortening the jav2 hull. These combined don't make for a promising picture.

I have not sailed the Jav 2 myself, but I trust my sources that have sailed it. I would be surprised if the ventilo is worse than the jav2 I'll admit to that, but no matter how good or bad the Ventilo is itself the Jav2 is not in high regard among cat designers. The relationship between jav2 and ventilo is of not importance in this.

Yes in 2004 it was said that the Gunboat HT cleaned up because its modified and raised beams stayed clear of the water. Andreas, I'm not making this all up. More than enough support for my statements are publically available on the net. Even from other HT sailors. When looking at the jav A the same comparisons to true flyers appear. Besides Tim has owned a jav2 himself and knows exactly how it sails. And also, I really don't think many jav2 potential buyers are tuning in to the F16 forum.

Hold on Andreas, I'm not bashing another design. I'm giving well foundated advice to a sailor considering buying a Jav2 that is going for a junk price and modify it into a full compliant F16. And I'm doing so on the FORMULA 16 forum. Don't make it out to be more than it is.

Lets face it the crews are not selling the jav2's at go broke prices because they are so happy with the boat. Also I have acces to various design experiment with regard to F16 design and I can tell everybody that the right volume placement is crucial in the F16's. Getting this right is hard to do when taking another 18 foot design and cutting it to F16 length. It involves alot of work and the end result may well be less then perfect. Also the Jav2 uses 3 mm thick beams and relatievely heavy hulls; It will be hard to get to F16 min weight. Than I'm not sure wether the bows will take a single forestay and jib. It could be made to work as a singlehander only (maybe) but not as a doublehander. Sure one may sad 1000-2000 bucks but one would still feel pretty silly when boats like the 12.000 US$ Blade F16 are both faster and alot more well mannered. If one could save 4000-5000 US$ then maybe but not with only 1000-2000 US$ savings.

Pardon my frankness, please, but it really doesn't matter whether you are happy with it or not. The question was and is whether is it is advisable to buy one cheap and convert it into a F16. The answer, with reason and when looking at how it is unmodified, is "very probably not".

That I fully agree with. I'm most probably going to be there and will look you up. Will you be there the whole week ? If so than I would love a ride on your HT.

Good ! I guessing several Spitfires will be out as well and a few F16's. Any chance of you asking a few of the Swiss Taipan 4.9 sailors to come out ?

Wouter

That sounds like the best place to sail on a long layover! We don't get our May schedules until April 15-18 so I will try to get an Amsterdam trip and get you some beer. I am only mid level seniority so I don't always get what I want. The month of April I'll be flying south to Sao Paulo all month. I don't know if they race cats down there but I intend to find out, or at least check out that Brazilian Bikini Wax and thong thingy...

As for the modification of a Jav 2, I thought if you cut the bows back until they were fat enough to NOT peirce waves, and got it 50 lbs. lighter, it might not slap the waves with the rear beam or nose dive, but the time and money would put me over the top of the Blade anyway so I guess I'll not try it.

I think the Jav 2 got a bad rap right off the start over here because the first guys to race it were all coming off the Inter 20. You cannot compare the two. The Inter 20 has very fat bows with two more feet of length, can be pressed very hard in big wind and chop without a problem. You will slap the rear beam on that one too!

These guys got on the Jav 2 and tried to sail it the same way downwind, two big guys on the wire, one hull, and pushed it hard in the open ocean...well, it quickly got the nick name "Yellow Submarine". Wave peircing only works with small waves.(see pictures above, now pretend you are out in the ocean)

I believe it was a mistake to use the Jav 2 in the Worrell as it's introduction to the US Market. It got a bad reputation right off. It is a great boat for triangle racing, in semi protected waters. I believe you would have even more problems if you tried to sail the Worrell on an F16 (see pictures above!). In the big waves/wind of the open ocean you need that two more feet of bow on the Inter 20, if you want to sail instead of swim.

I don't bash other boats, they are all good in one area or another. You cannot beat the A cats for light and fast. You cannot beat the Inter 20 for big waves, and fast, but in medium wind, flat water, you will beat Inter 20's on a Jav 2. I've owned them both and liked them both, but for different reasons.

My biggest problem is finding crew all the time I want to sail. I live on the shore of a nice lake but nobody else near me sails. When the kids are in school, I want to sail, alone, no matter how much wind. I was successful in doing that with the Jav 2 until it got windy. I was successful doing that with the Inter 20, until I ruptured a disc and had back surgery. Pulling a 420lb. boat up a hill, alone, is not the best thing you can do for your back. I want a light spinnaker boat that has the possibility of taking a small crew (my kid) along to sail, but unless it's blowing 20, I will race it alone.

As soon as I can get some days off with Matt, I'll try out the Blade. From what I have seen on this site, it looks like a great mix of A cat lightness with Inter 20 spinnaker speed.

If there were a fleet of Jav 2's around, I might be tempted to go back to that boat. It was great solo in light to medium wind, here on the lake. But when you put two big (heavy) guys on it in big wind and big waves...well, I would never attempt the Worrell on it, or on a 16 footer either! (but you know the Worrell was first sailed on Hobie 16's, non stop, talk about nuts!)

So, If I can get to Amsterdam in May, I'll let you know.

There is quite alot you can do to a boat and get away as Altered has showed, but the second part of your comment put the cut-out line pretty low. It will be easy to spend a considerable amount on modifying a boat.

Mathematics suggest that the jav2 may have about the same THEORETICAL width as the F16's at given %-stations along the length.

Altered A-cat was quite a more narrow. I doubt wether you can cut of just over 1 foot of the bow (and halve a foot of the stern) and still get a decently sharp bow entry. It may turn-out to be pretty blund.

I expect the platform to come in heavy; especially since the old carbon HT rig will have been light. I seem to remember that the HT's rules that platform had to be 120 kg, is that correct ? The Alu superwing rig can replace the old carbon rig without losing weight on that, I seem to remember both were of the same overall weight. So now the only weight you saved is the cut off parts. This should not be more than 6 kg overall. So now we'll have a overall boat weight of 124 kg if the original jav 2 was right at its min weight. Of course most were not, especially not the Worrell jav2's these are all 135 kg or slightly over that. You could than replace the 10mm x 3 mm beams (6.5 kg) by 10 mmx 2mm (4.33 kg) and save another 4.5 kg's without losing any significant stiffness. So 120 kg to 124 kg must be achievable.

That will put you at 15 kg overweight (at minimum) to the other F16's. You have have short stern and thus short tillers unless you use big backwards protruding pintles as Altered has done. And then I'm still not sure wether the hulls will allow a jib and single forestay without serious modifications the bow sections.

So yes the jav 2 may be a decent boat, although not highly regarded by its peers, but I would personally shy away from using it as a basis to mould a F16 from.

If you do decide to go this route I think we have a few people in the background that can give you some pointers; sort of lessons learned on other projects.

With regard to F16 in a Worrell. That is not our cup of thee. The F16's will take big waves but the ride will require to high an attention span. F16's are like sports cars. They drive great with quick sharp responses, good accelleration and close to I-20 speeds but driving them for many hours on end will make you very tired indeed. You can't sustain that level of focus for so long.

Also, I'm not advicing the F16 for everyone, as Tim says different boats for different people. But I do think that 30 kg less weight and a more controllable rig while keeping the doublehanded option open in a serious way is a strong point of the F16's when looking at Tims (your) case. I know that I personally have thanked the heavens many times by now for just that versatility. Even for this weekend, I made a relatively loose commitment with somebody to race. But I'm not working myself up over it. I will just throw in the jib in the back of my car and see if he'll show up at the event or not. IF he does GREAT, put the jib on and go. If not than I'm ready rigging sooner and go solo. Either way I'm sailing this weekend.

Wouter

Tim and all,

Great Pics!

In picture #2, one sees ,
- hull trim ( you can see lee bow, very nice trim),
- main sail( working) and spin( here is the question) condition,
- rudder effieciency ( working nice)
- speed ( he is moving, right?)

...here is the question, to get the entire boat ( hull, sails, rudders/boards) performing at the speed/trim of picture #2...

.....what % of that spinnaker is working?

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix

ps,...again, great pics....thanks

From those pictures it does look like Gary had plenty of power with the spinnaker luffing! When it filled, the nose dives began. Gary, do you have foot straps on the back of your boat? If you had been out on the wire you would not have stuffed so much.

I know you were not racing, but in a race, it's nice to have some foot straps back there when it gets wild. Or, you could just take the spinnaker down and do the Wild thing like the other A cats.

Tried this at Port Kembla, after seeing Taipan coming downwind washing off power slipping sideways. It helped but how do you stop from hitting them when you slide forward when sitting on side. Mine are tapered all the way to the top, could do a nasty injury. Not a problem if you are trapezing though you generaly get thrown clear.

Regards Gary.

Gary,

From the photo's, it doesn't look like your running much rotation or reduced luff tension with the kite up.?? Is the mast that much stiffer now with the timber up the guts now or in the excitement did you forget & therefore your rig is very forgiving !!

Experience on the T tells me I go home with a broken mast if I didn't run 90 - 100 deg of rotation & reduce luff tension giving more pressure to the leech.!!

Are you going to try T-foils ??

Hi Marcus,

The timber in the mast seems to have made it indestructible (touch wood), I don't know about stiffer but it certainly is stronger, I try not to look up but it bends sideways beyond belief. Rotation and downhaul don't seem to bother it, I started off rotating more and letting downhaul off, but now I just let mega downhaul off from upwind in strong breeze to a normal position and don't even touch rotation from upwind have enough to do sailing single handed with kite. It's one of the things I like about sailing with spin. hardly touch mainsail adjustments at top mark if it's busy, just go for kite.

Not looking at T Foils at the moment I think my heavywind technique has been wrong under kite and will make more difference to stuffing bows in if I can get it right. Hopefully got some hints looking at Taipans and Blade at Port Kembla, just have to put it into practice.

Regards Gary.

 

Yeah your probably right it would have been faster with spin. down, speed does look good in second pic. was just using it for a brake. It is a 5kt. speed limit area after all.

Regards Gary.

I do have straps at back but so far still stuff it in on trapeze, only difference is higher speed sends me flying further through air . I am working on not doing this in future, trying to learn to depower, got some ideas last weekend that will work I hope

Wild thing doesn't seem to work at this downwind angle seems to still drive bows under. Also speed etc. is not as good, shorter boat, extra weight etc.

Regards Gary.

How do you stop from hitting them ? Chicken line. With a few smart mods it can be used just as well when sitting on hull as when trapping. You may have to make it adjustable in length though.

Wouter

Are your toe straps (for hiking on) on the Tramp continious along the tramp. My Inter 17 ones have a loop 1/2 way along that helps to keep you back - If I was not selling the boat I might consider putting another loop further back

Gary,

I was kinda hinting a a small spinnaker.......why not?...

..a heavy air spinnaker you know.

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

I have considered that. One up does have a load of sail area, but at a reggatta recently I was reminded why it is better to learn how to handle what you have.

It was very gusty seemed to be building I was wishing I had a smaller kite to rig, but the wind dropped out if anything and I was able to record a good finish position as I was powered up downwind.

Glad I didn't have a smaller kite to change to. See my new thread I think I have it under control now.

Regards Gary.