Hey fellas.
I understand the perception that
ISAF doesn't want us,
and I'd never imply that there aren't legitimate reasons for feeling that way. Currently, I'm much deeper into the whole process than I ever was before last year. At this point, I do not think that
they don't want us.
In fact, I have found less of the attitude that
multihulls are different
within the ranks of volunteers at USSA and ISAF than I do at multihull fleet meetings. For what it may be worth in your debate, I find both USSA and ISAF have a good general regard of the multihull classes, though they do see us as a minority discipline. The Olympic decision was not about
how do we get rid of multihulls.
It was a case of every nation voting self-interest over a representation of a variety of sailing disciplines. The situation is still very fluid and it is far from over.
With regard to ISAF recognized status, I would recommend you discuss the matter with your manufacturers - there is a fee per boat for builders of ISAF-recognized equipment, and some of the benefits to being a recognized class are to the factory (therefore less visible to owners). A healthy owner-controlled class should have an open dialogue with the builders about the future.
Another avenue that is just opening to the multihull community is the newly formed International Multihull Council. An introduction letter is likely to be published this week or next describing what led to the formation of the IMC, the objectives they've been working toward, and what they plan to do in the short- and long-term. The IMC will have Affiliate status with ISAF and will have personnel at ISAF meetings to represent multihull intrests. Class Associations and manufacturers will be getting letters soliciting support and membership. There have been some big things in the works for the last several months which are now ready to be rolled out.
Planning for the future is the best indicator that a Class is being well-managed. Way to go, F16. <img src=
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I read the documentation of international / recognized class and I suggest that others do the same. Do we have any thoughts from our manufacturers?
JW: Good to hear from you. The news about the IMC sounds hopeful. Please keep us informed.
I noticed that Nacra are having a Worlds and Europeans with primarily boats that are not registered as an official ISAF class.
They call it a Nacra F18 Worlds but it will probably be 90% Infusions.
http:/
I guess ISAF is more relaxed then we think?
Maybe someone from the F16 class could write up a comprehensive report outlining all the pros and cons of joining ISAF?
Nacra F18 is a an ISAF registered class...
Of course u are right, but the Infusion isn't (different boats IMHO).
(And I think we both know what is left of the original Nacra F18 fleet <img src=
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Formula 18 is an ISAF International Class, designated as having multiple designers/builders. I suppose it would be the same for the Formula 16. And it is the same way for the A Class. I don't think there is any requirement that the individual designs within the formula class have to be ISAF classes in and of themselves.
Nacra f18 is the registered class, even though the design is updated the class retains its ISAF status.
Much the same as the 14ft Skiff...
For example, F18 is a registered class, but Nacra F18 and Hobie Tiger are also individualy registerd classes. So they are elligble to hold their own Worlds.
They call it a Nacra F18 Worlds but it will probably be 90% Infusions.
http:/
I guess ISAF is more relaxed then we think?
Maybe someone from the F16 class could write up a comprehensive report outlining all the pros and cons of joining ISAF?
I've spent a good bit of time on the ISAF website today.
The pros and cons seem to me, subjective. Either you belong or you don't. I haven't yet found any benefit to be derived beyond what U.S. Sailing offers. There is, however, much more information than I can cover in a single day.
In any case, we may not have sufficient numbers for consideration.
You may want to read part 26 pp. 101-106.
.pdf]http:/
That's correct. Nacra and Hobie like to get International status for their own boats so they can hold world championships exclusively for those boats.
An F18 world championship, on the other hand, is open to ALL of the F18 designs.
In other words, if F16 became an International ISAF class, it would not be necessary for the Blade and the Stealth and the Viper, etc. to become International classes. But if the Blade wanted to be able to do one-design world championships, it would have to get International status for itself.
Correct, only the F16 would need to be ISAF recognised to hold a worlds.
However for F16 to achieve such status there are a number of criteria that have to be met such as a minumum number of boats on each continent.
Also the bigest hurdle (change from current status) is the class rules would have to be ratified by ISAF and this is no easy task.
As a sailor, I would want my class to be ISAF sanctioned for two reasons.
Class rules are stable world wide and changes must go through ISAF through the approved
class rule change mechanism
. This assures me that the crazy XXX's can't willy nilly change the boat weight and still call it
F16 class
If they did .... ISAF is the organization that would tell US Sailing to tell the host yacht club... that hosting the F16 illegal class would cause them to loose their standing within the national sailing community. Sailors who participate in the event would also be barred from competing in other ISAF sanctioned events. ISAF hammers both clubs and sailors for rules violations. (See also drug testing rule, professional sailor rules etc etc)
Major championships (worlds, continentals) must be announced according to a specific calander, They must have a certain level of international participation (for a worlds)_.... the event must have a certain level of international judges and PRO with a certain level of skill. You could not for instance declare the upcoming gulfport regatta... the US Nationals just because it looked like it would be well attended. (those Californan's would have a legit beef that they were not given notice about the Nationals, etc etc.)
In short, ISAF standing gives your organization the stamp of approval that you meet a level of organization and excellence equivalent to the other International classes.
As a sailor... I would have a certain level of confidence in what to expect of an ISAF sanctioned class.
If memory serves... Wouter and the class founders had an extensive debate on the merits of getting ISAF recognition. They had gotten boats and races in the required regions etc etc. It cost a good bit of money to press on with the application and the founders did not pursue it.
Your opinion might vary as to the benefits of ISAF recognition.
In the end... it's the class.... (the organizational structure, rules, and demonstrated leadership) that must have credibilty for consumers to buy into your organization as the racing class of F16's. It is this organizaton that makes sure the builders comply with the class rules and that the equipment is within tolerance and the racing fair around the world. ISAF is one way of getting this credibility.
Pete,
It is good that you went to the trouble of finding and reading the ISAF regulations.
I am sure that Wouter and the other F16 Class founders and the current governing council and all the builders are aware of the requirements for ISAF International or Recognized status. And I am sure that at some point it will come up for discussion under this heading of Class Business.
But the ISAF is the primary reason for lack of interest in the sport today. Just look at what they have done with the Olympics! <img src=
alt=
/> Indeed with friends like the ISAF controlling and manipulating the sport, who needs enemies? <img src=
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.
Hmm..... that needs some explanation!
?
This argument is too simplisitic.... Explain WHY we have a new discipline...
Women's Match Racing
We catamarans are a small niche of sailing... poorly organized, with no political savy AND with two bits of unsporting behavior at the international level in the very recent past. The vote was about a collection of countries voting their self interest.... The Olympic debacle is a red herring with respect to Why you might want to be ISAF approved.
Women's Match Racing
We catamarans are a small niche of sailing... poorly organized, with no political savy ....
The ISAF wants
gender equity
throughout the organization. That may be a worhtwhile goal, but it smacks of political correctness and quotas. It isn't something I wish to get involved with.
Well we have just gone through this and ratified out class rules with a Member ISAF for our 18HT class. It is sure possible, it takes some time and now it is done.
The 18HT class is now a official 'Swiss Sailing B Class'.
IMO, ISAF ist the way to go.
It would be a great boost for the F16 class to get ISAF recognised status (at least) or international status. This would clearly show that the class has left its 'children's shoes' and is getting stable and serious.
Not that I think it is not stable and serious <img src=
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Greetings from Switzerland
Hey Andi,
does that mean you had the rules checked by the ISAF Member, but the class is still not recognised by ISAF?
I think its great to have ISAF check the class rules and offer suggestions as to how to improve them. It really opens your eyes as to why rules are worderd the way they are sometimes.
I think the scrutiny that ISAF put class rules under if the class wants to become recognised as an international class is very intense.
Im not sure Im ready to revisit that ISAF discussion.. <img src=
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Yes, the 18HT class, has 'only' the National Swiss Sailing B class status. We haven't worked on the ISAF recognised status yet.
Most of our boats are distributed mainly in and around Switzerland and Italy. But at our last 'Europeans' at the lake of Thun, there where 20 boats/competitors from germany, italy, france and switzerland and the competition was on. The Sach brothers (GER - F18 Worldchampions 2006) where beaten in the final race from Daniele Saragoni and crew (ITA).
Stewart,
I'm pretty much of the same mind.
We need to focus on setting up National Associations first.
Talking about ISAF before the national associations are set up is really putting the horse before the cart.
A bit like buying a set of tyres when you haven't bought a car.
<img src=
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Pete,
Just like anyone else.... although maybe it should have been
cart before the horse
.
I just got back from the Alter Cup where I held the prestigious position of water boy! From this august position I was able to speak with and listen to a number of top level sailors. This is what I heard.
The F16 portsmouth number is too soft. Handicap racing with the current number is unfair.
Racing 1up/2up in the same regatta is not fair. That is to say you need to sail the entire regatta with the same number of crew. This opinion was expressed by F18 and F16 sailors.
I agree. We should committ to establishing a rule for number of crew and petition USSailing for a lower handicap number.
Comments?
My personal opinion:
You enter either as one up or two up, and sail the event that way. If you loose your crew you do the same as you do if you need/want to change crew/helm, you submit a written application to the jury. The jury can than either approve and make it know on the notice board, or they can deny the request. Fair enough for me.
You enter either as one up or two up, and sail the event that way. If you loose your crew you do the same as you do if you need/want to change crew/helm, you submit a written application to the jury. The jury can than either approve and make it know on the notice board, or they can deny the request. Fair enough for me.
Agreed.
You declare on entry if you are sailing 1 or 2 up;
If you break your crew, you need to find another one, and gain permission via the jury. You cannot add a crew (or remove) a crew during the event.
Firstly the portsmouth is what it is.. (currently) and outside the F16 boundaries of influence...
re the one-up or two -up... Well I would leave it in the hands of the race committee and terms of gift of the trophies.. However if someone gets injured then we should allow the boat to sail as a solo or with a crew.. (perhaps not gain the title)..
I just hope common sense prevails and we realise at the end of the day we are out there for fun and enjoying the sailing... Those competing for sheep stations are sailing F18 & Ts...
We were successful in petitioning USS to do away with the uni rating, so we might be successful in petitioning a change in the overall rating.
I just hope common sense prevails and we realise at the end of the day we are out there for fun and enjoying the sailing... Those competing for sheep stations are sailing F18 & Ts...
I was surprised to hear, as a criticism of the class, that we are a
recreational
class, not a racing class.
On the 1 up vs. 2 up thing, you run the risk of having a bunch of Uni sailors sitting on the beach when it's gusting over 20, they could not team up (like we did at Gulfport) on one day then sail Uni on the light air day that always follows the big blow...or they would have to stay teamed up on the light day, and you would have fewer boats racing, with perfectly good boats sitting in the parking lot...is that what you want?
As far as the P number, leave it alone, we are usually racing against each other, not in handicap anyway, but if we do race handicap, I want a slower Uni number, because racing Uni is slower rounding the downwind mark and snuffing the spin alone.
Oh, and who was complaining about the F16 number at the Alter Cup?
As far as the P number, leave it alone, we are usually racing against each other, not in handicap anyway, but if we do race handicap, I want a slower Uni number, because racing Uni is slower rounding the downwind mark and snuffing the spin alone.
Oh, and who was complaining about the F16 number at the Alter Cup?
I'm not going to get into naming names. There was no complaining. The opinions were voiced civilly and based on first hand experience. Remember this was the Alter Cup, the guys doing the talking were well qualified to speak authoritatively. I wish you could have been there. Having you speak with them persoanlly, hear their reasoning, would have been very constructive, IMO.
Personally, I'd like to have the F18 sailors join this chat. We share the same sport and same resources. What one group does affects the other.