Production Blade F16 Prices

That is very expensive for Australian prices. I think the Viper will below that price. First one hits Singapore in August so waiting to see what that will be like. There is also a Blade and heaps of Taipans so will be quite a good mixed F16 fleet.

Does that cost include a trailer or not?

Also shipping a boat to Oz would be a bit higher than you would think. Recently moved a boat to Singapore and the insurance is at least $500, plus the container costs are quite a few thousand dollars. From the US would be considerably more. Best to get a few guys thinking along the same lines to minimise those costs to take into account the high Aussie dollar.

It doesn't include a trailer, or beach roller. I would be interested in the prices of the Viper. I've seen and sailed a lot of Easter built boats and they seem reasonable for the money, they might not last as long but if you turn them over every 3 or 4 years....

Wow, that is really high in price. I know the A I bought included beach wheels at least.

Will be interesting to see what the Viper build quality is like. It is built up the road in Thailand. But a positive is that the same factory is building the Rogers 46 racing yachts and they look quite good in the detailing.

Initial price goal for the Viper on the Australian market was 19.500 AUS$ I believe.

It will have to be shown in the next couple of months wether AHPC can achieve this goal.

Wouter

Not sure how the Americans can do for so much less but for sure it's going to be difficult for the Aussies to break into the US market with Vector Sail Works in the picture.... <img src=

alt=

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Not to disagree with your main point, but assuming you would have to pay 10% GST and with the AUD at less than 0.85USD, you're up for at least A$16.7k before you add shipping. With shipping, it's probably somewhere close to Wouter's suggested number for the Viper, but still a long way south of A24k.

Mark.

Aus$ 24.000 is a high amount. I hope this is a typo or some conversative quote as it would directly translate into 15094 Euro's. (incl 10% Aussie taxes apparently)

The US build Blades are available overhere at 14.165 Euro's, fully fitted and ready to sail incl. 19% taxes and pick up at Zandvoort, The Netherlands.

Stealths upon pick up in the UK are 14.264 Euro's including taxes and a carbon mast. (This is the RACE version, so you'll want for nothing).

Wouter

Chris,

As i mentioned to you the pricing was only an estimate & far from complete.

Currently a standard F16 will include.

1. Kevlar hulls made in Aus of the highest quality
2. Carbon reinforced foils & carbon stocks
3. Harken fit out
4. Purpose made beams, not round tubes & mast sections for beams
5. Dieform rigging.
6. Minimum weight.(around 103-106kgs complete)
7. Spectra & dyneema halyards & controls

From memory the Tiapan 4.9 was selling for a little under 20K last year & if you add some of the above items you will get closer to the 23-24K AUS mark.

When pricing for this boat is complete a full list of included item will be available on our web site.

Regards

Marcus Towell
Formula Catamarans

Hello Marcus,

It's true that Taipans are in a similar price bracket, but I would love to know how many boats they have sold recently.

I don't doubt for a second that your boats are built to highest industry standard. I was just mearly comparing locally built to an imported boat.

I still don't understand how an A-Class in full carbon/construction, carbon fibre cross beams, carbon fibre mast, dyform rigging, carbon fibre foils can cost the same price. Theres more boat in an A Class (its longer) and there considerably light.

I dont want an A-Class it doesn't suit my purpose!

I'm sorry if I caused you any grief! I look forwarding to seeing the boats once there in full production and a final price.

kind regards,
Chris,

This is not really the case, is it ?

The number of sails (add jib and spinnaker) and fittings (cleats for jib, spinnaker, snuffer, etc) are more for the F16. This additional hardware does add up in cost. Especially with the popular new line materials like D12 and Swiftcord. Cordage has never been this expensive. Also there is more volume enclosed in the F16 hulls as well more laminate, despite the fact that the hulls are shorter.

Now the 75 kg A-cat is very light, but so too is the 107 kg F16 when you realize that it must withstand the bridle loads of a tight single forestay (jib) and a crew of two with the sheets and control lines cranked on hard (squaretop main). I would venture to say that with respect to hulls there isn't that much difference in required skill and quality level between an A-cat and F16. That F16 is highly loaded up.

I broke 2 Taipan 4.9 mainsail halyard shackles in a row (2 weeks apart) and now I'm sailing with a Taipan 5.7 halyard shackle and that one is holding. The A-cat agent with a 30 history in A-cats was clearly surprised when I broke two of these so quickly after one another, and nothing else. Clearly the shackles weren't up to the F16 loads. This when they have proven to be sufficient for the standard Taipan. Imagine what this means for the loads on the hulls.

Still, I agree with you that the price difference between a 25.000 AUD modern A-cat and 24.000 AUD for a modern F16 with an alu mast is of concern.

But I think we need to wait a little longer till the Aussie Blade production has settled a little. The first boat build in a series (pilot) is always more expensive in cost. Afterall, AHPC's Capricorn F18 is 26.000 AUD. Meaning that the more high tech F16 is still 2000 AUD cheaper then that.

Just for comparison a standard sloop (no spi) Taipan 4.9 in Aus is currently priced at 20.650 Aud. If this is to be upgraded to the level of the Aussie Blade F16 then you have to add :

Kevlar hulls : 550
Carbon boards/stocks : 44 + 448 = 492
Spinnaker kit (+snuffer) : 2023
Conversion to selftacker : unknown but could well be zero as the hardware is about as expensive.

Therefor Taipan 4.9 + spi with comparable level of upgrades = 23715 AUD

This is very close to the (initial) 24.000 AUD quote for the Aussie Blade.

Wouter

I would Imagine that if you are using so much downhaul tension that you are snapping shackles , you must also be bending your mast considerably, and as such decreasing your rig tension by lowering the effective hounds height consequently reducing rig tension forces on platform .

Good point.

But the spinnaker requires that the hounds be not too low on the mast.

In my personal situation you must be aware that the top of my mainsail is cut relative full, afterall, I got one of the very first (prototype) F16 mainsails with a large head. So it isn't perfect and I have to pull it into the right shape a little more then the newer designs.

Additionally, alot of my extra load comes from the fact that a large squaretop head requires more sheet tension to set properly. Also my boat is wider then the standard Taipan and I carry a larger mainsail. When I broke the shackles I was regulary sailing it in conditions around 20 knots of wind with some 150 to 160 kg on board.

Wouter

How did you get that price for a Taipan when they don't make them at all? Must be the last quoted price from mid '06 as I haven't heard that they restarted production.

Also in the last few years of Taipan building the prices were jacked up as production volume dropped off to single digits per annum. I know a friend who bought a Taipan in the low 300s sail number who didn't pay anywhere near that kind of price new for a stock Taipan. So I don't think the last quoted price of a Taipan is a good indicator.

To everybody,

Allow me to row against the current so to say.

After having done a significant amount of experimenting with fittings myself I have personally concluded that Harken fittings are not worth the added cost. Over time I learned that the right selection of components from different suppliers is both cheaper and superior in performance.

The only parts for which Harken is favoured in my opinion are the mainsheet systems and the simple all metal blocks. The latter is incidently also the cheapest mini blocks or all suppliers. I refering to the 3 digit series microblocks. As they have all metal sides these blocks tend to withstand line abrasion extremely well, much better then the modern plastic blocks. This is especially important when the line loads are skewed, like with the spi halyard/retrieval lines. And for some reason Ronstan and the others just don't have a very good mainsheet system.

In the way of ratchet blocks; Ronstan smartratchets (post 2005) and Riley autoratchets are excellent and better then the Harken blocks that tend to hold less and wear out quicker.

In the way of cleats , especially the ones with guide rails, I strongly prefer the Ronstan fittings. They just work better and none of them has ever failed me, the Harken ones have a less then stellar rep sheet in my book.

Also for the larger (plastic) blocks I'm now exclusively using the RWO, SailSure and SailSafe blocks, there are just at the same level as the best out there but halve the cost. Same for plain metal hardware like chainplates and eyestraps etc. Shackles etc are halve Wichard and halve RWO.

Also I've replaced many (micro/mini) blocks by simple inexpensive stainless steel rings (probably Wichard or RWO). These foul up less as they allow slighlty bundled up lines to pass anyway and unless there is alot of load on the line they tend to add only very little friction.

I think Ronstand RF5's (180 swivel cleat) and RF57's (360 swivel cleats with a base) are the best out there. I dislike the harken versions of them alot. The harken versions use alot of (plate) metal and this tends to wear down the lines or go

cling-clong

. The Ronstan versions have all plastic housings and the excellent line guides which are simply better then the Harken metal versions.

I found the Harken cam cleats to often fail at the springs, resulting in a

dead

cam.

Additionally I really dislike with a passion the harken recirculating ball traveller systems. They always get stuck with sand and salt. The same for the spinlock cleats. Ronstan has the same

enhanced expression of disapproval

but also the 19 mm I-tracks with stainless steel wheeled traveller cars with stainless steel ball barings. I use this both for my mainsheet traveller and the selftacker rail. I love both to bits and I NEVER EVER use water to clean them out, this is just not necessary as they always work even when they had been totally submerged in sand and salt. They are also the most smooth running traveller systems I have ever encountered. For F16 mainsheet traveller system be sure to use the 6 wheeled traveller car as that one will hold up to any load you can put on it. Interestingly enough the 19 mm I-track system is also the most inexpensive traveller system available. The best and the cheapest !

For cordage I swear by the Marlow high grade 3 and 4 mm dyneema (500 kg and 750 kg breaking load). I used these for everything except the mainsheet and downhaul system. For the latter two (and only the portion that I hold in my hands) I use swiftcord. These dyneema lines are also rather inexpensive compared to D12 and other fashionable lines. I dislike spectra and kevlar lines with a passion as they have always failed on the least opportune moments. Dyneema has always pulled me though. I'm hanging of these 3 mm 500 kg dyneema line as traplines for about 7 years now and no mishap yet. Also these dyneema lines are easily stitched which is a good alternative to splicing the lines.

All these things safe time, effort and money.

I hope this help some people.

Wouter

Correct.

Incidently the AHPC website still links to the Taipan 4.9 PDF file that contains the pricing. The date of this pricing is Oktober 2006

http://www.ahpc.com.au/pdf/AHPC%20Price%20List%20Taipan.pdf

It is the last known official pricing.

Economic developments has increased pricing on alot of products over the last few years. Maybe the Taipan pricing was raised as a result of this as well. Maybe more so then the single digit production. Afterall, all the tooling, moulds and stock have long been payed for, so single digit production may not raise cost too much.

For us Europeans the standard Taipan 4.9 with spinnaker was always 16.000 Euro's = 25.450 Aud at todays unfavourable exchange rate (less AUD per Euro). Shipping to EU was never really expensive for AHPC as these boats would just share a ride with the Capricorn or A-cat containers going over regulary.

But anyway, this is a passed station. The Viper F16 quote will be the one to watch.

Wouter

The Taipan moulds have gone over to Asia for production over there. So yes they still make them, I think some were due to be back here later in the year.

Although I haven't heard any prices being talked about, the price of the Taipan is supposed to be somewhat cheaper, with the asian built hulls.

Hi Chris,

what Australian brand and manafacturer of A class are you quoting the price of? It certainly doesn't sound like the price for a Ashby Gelteck Flyer 2 that I have heard. I thought it was more like $30,000. It is allways important to know what you are comparing. <img src=

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And I heard from the managing director himself that the Viper F16 will be cheaper then the Taipan. Both are made in Thailand.

So I guess the rumour cirquit is a full tilt now. Best is to just wait for the dust to settle and go on the prices payed for the first batch of actually delivered boats.

Personally, I want to see the Thai build these boats down to 102 and 107 kg weight before I believe it. Cost reductions are never free; you have to pay for it somewhere !

Wouter

I think the A-cat refered to is the AHPC flyer : http://www.ahpc.com.au/pdf/AHPC%20Price%20List%20A-Class.pdf

However, I don't think this boat is produced anymore. Boyer quit and AHPC is said to act as a dealor network for The Tool A-cat by Wayne Mercer, these are not produced by AHPC themselfs. Geltek does the successor, the flyer 2 and I haven't heard anything about somebody else producing this AHPC Flyer. In my book this design is discontinued and the price quote is of april 2005 which is two years old. Didn't carbon prices rise significantly since then ?

Wouter

Just found this website:
http://www.surfcitycatamarans.com/GeltekFlyer2.html
The CURRENT Gel-Tek Flyer Two, as used by Glenn Ashby there selling sail-away for 25,999.

My history is in OTB monohulls and keelboats, and my interest in prices is i'm looking to move onto something faster. A dual purpose boat that I can sail by myself or with a crew really suits me.

I also work in the marine industry mainly retail but I regular consult with clients about fit outs and upgrades so I’d like to think I know what products are out there pretty well. I also echo what Wouter has to say, I don't think there’s a perfect brand. I really like harken they have some cool stuff like the tie-lite blocks, but ronstans catching up. Harken is by far the most expensive the cheapest way for me to buy it is from the US. Believe it or not this is actually cheaper than the Australian wholesale. But there are cheaper ways that work just as well they just might not be black and cool looking! I love the ronstan series 19 traveller systems there so cheap! if you want a compact ball bearing block for purchase systems and control line then riley have some great small BB blocks and there lighter and much cheaper than the harken 16mm blocks. We have a local manufacture of spectra lines in Australia (Whitam Ropes) there 3mm and 4mm Spectra with a polyester casing is cheap, strong and really low stretch. We sell the 3mm for $1 per meter and the 4mm $1.8. The ronstan distributed FSE is only slightly more expensive and has a UV stable core so it can be tapered. For out hauls, purchase systems, halyard things that won't be cleated directly I love the Liros Dyneema Pro. Its $1.8 for 3mm, has a breaking load around 600kg, and 3% stretch. It’s really easy to splice eyes in, the 4mm is only slightly more expensive.

To add another rumor to the mill, I heard that AHPC were trying to move away from the Taipans. I heard that only a few years ago they destroyed there 5.9 mould. If I was them and I wanted to sell my new F18 capricorns it would make sense to offer the taipan at an increased price.

That would be AMERICAN DOLLARS, mate.

Still converts into 30859 Aud (= AUSTRALIAN DOLLARS) as Gary said.

(Current day exchange rate converted using google.com)

Wouter

Hi Chris

You aren't adding anything to the rumour mill. The 5.7 mould was destroyed a couple of years ago. The 4.9 still has a strong following in OZ, I don't believe the same fate will come of their moulds when the Viper is in production, two different markets, two different boats.

Regards

To add some facts to the rumour mill:

There are 2 Taipan moulds. The old 3 piece and the newer 2 piece. Don't know where the 2 piece is, but the 3 piece is at the same factory where the Capricorn is being made at Batam, Indonesia. No Taipans have been made in this factory.

I recently bought an A class at the end of '06 and what I paid was less than the amounts you guys are mentioning here (Geltek Flyer 2). A$24k without a trailer is the ballpark figure.

As far for the price of carbon, I have a research report on my desk specifically about this. Prices have steadied, if not fallen off a bit in the past 6 to 12 months. If manufacturers still quote prices going up then either they are getting screwed when they buy it, or we are as consumer of these products.

Hope this info helps.

So are carbon prices significantly higher then 3 years ago or not.

Afterall, prices

can steady

at a higher level, can't they ?

Wouter

Hi all,

Taipan sailors at recent regatta where talking about new boats being available out of Thailand before this coming OZ season. Won't add to the rumour mill about pricing, but they haven't moved production off shore to pay a higher price <img src=

alt=

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The commodity price of carbon is around US$45,000/ton, about the same price as 2 to 3 years ago give or take a couple of US$1000 above what it was.

Record highs for carbon were in late 80s and then again in mid-90s at close to US$60,000/ton so we are not paying top dollar now compared to the past!

Carbon had its big run up from low 30,000 to current levels in '02.

Production capacity is above demand. What will effect the price will be of some of the other materials that gone into the production of carbon. Despite production getting more efficient, these could potential push up the price.

Could keep going on about the different types and where the new demand for carbon is coming from (windmills!) but that would be boring. So back to sailing.

I have it from different beach cat sources (as in actual builders) that the kind of carbon cloths used for our boats have become significantly more expensive over the last 3 years due to shortages in production. Aircraft builders and the sort (windmills) are buying enormous batches up front. There is coming more production capacity on-line but it isn't here yet.

last year it got to the point where whole specific grades and weaves of carbon weren't even available to private parties.

I don't know how to square these reports with your statements, but I would love to find out how they are compatible.

Wouter

I had a bit of sticker shock also after reading the production Blade F16 was $24k. After rechecking my Mozzie building spreadsheet which comes out at $16500 using commercial built hulls at $8k and spending an additional $8.5k purchasing everything else including spinnaker it looks reasonable. I haven't taken the labour cost into account to put the Mozzy together and building the trailer as I was doing it myself.
If you take into account the cost of labour and the fact the Blade is a latest technology cat so almost every part will cost more then a Mozzy $24k looks alright particularly if that was an optimistic preproduction price.
The A looks to be overpriced and poor resale price of an A makes a new one a very expensive purchase, a bargain secondhand cat though.

Darryn
Mozzie 1782

That's an interesting comparison (and have been waiting a while for someone to go to the trouble of working out how much a Mozzie

really

costs), but now I think about it, the mast is a lot more expensive for an F16 than a Mozzie, but apart from that I can't see where there would really be much difference in cost.

Surely every fitting is the same, the foils will cost the same, the sails and tramp are very slightly bigger. The hulls are the same construction method - just a bit more of it. There's a bit of gear for the self tacking jib. These are all small increments. I know you need to add fitting out labour but I can't see $8000.