But we all know exactly who the realists are, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? <img src=
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Frisbeetarians?
there is a great book called
Cod
which describes cod fishing and its imporance to 1000-1400 AD Europe..
It it it suggests the Basques knew about the east coast of America. Since this is the area of the great Cod grounds... Basques never told about the western lands as that would allow other fishermen to plunder the basque cash cow!!
Actually it was Wouters ancestors and the rest of Europe that thought the World was flat. The Pollies had been sailing the far reaches of the Pacific for centuries when the Anglo-Saxons finally got brave enough to sail out of sight of land.
Cooks notes suggested he thought the Tahitian catamarans capable of 20 knots! He said they were impossible to out run or out manouver....
Oh and we all like catamarans....and who created them???????
Tahiti when discovered by the French had 24 hour lighthouses and over 350 of what the French desciribed as large Ships.
The eating each other comment is just amazing as Europe has a long history of Cannibalism including families who killed lone travellers and butchered them and sold the meat to other travellers. The Crusaders did their best to barbeque and eat a whole city. Christians that they were.
Ignorance often opens peoples mouths wide and they need to to get their feet in.
One of my cats is Named Galileo in thanks to his leaving the nonesence of the church back in the Dark ages......and it was called the DARK ages because of what the church insisted on people. Thank God for the age of enlightenment!
You are playing a little fast and loose with the facts here Warbird.
That would make them YOUR ancestors as well Warbird unless you are Maori. But lets not forget that the Greecks had already calculated the circumference of the earth quite accurately, subsequent European peoples developped a navigational system based on this knowlegde. The knowlegde that the earth was round was only suppressed in midevil times and the early renaissance. Suppressing is the right word here as the Church never succeeded at eradicating this knowlegde, although it did manage to have it made a closely guarded guild secret of maritime navigators.
Anglo-Saxons have a big mouth and claim far more then they actually achieved. The first explorers were the Portugese followed closely by the Spanish. Then came the Dutch (who discovered large swaths of south east asia and Oceania. Hence the names like Tasmania (Van Diemens land), Arnhem land in Australia and even the name New Zealand itself (after first being called Staten Landt and then Nieuw Zeeland).
For more read this short article : http:/
The Brits and French joined the party later often still using many Dutch maps.
I can't name a single land that was discovered by the English. And if they did then it will be nothing more then an atol or small island (Cook, polynesia). The only exception here being the eastern seaboard of the United states, but its existance had already been established by Spanish navigators who largely ignored it from then onward because they didn't see any commericial benefits to do so. Even then large parts of North America were French and Dutch
discoveries
. hence the names New Orleans, Louisiana, Illinois and Staten Island (remember Staten Landt), Brooklyn (Breukelen), Harlem (Haarlem) and a score of Dutch town names in North West America. Florida was Spanish as were large portions of Califorina, Texas and the states in between.
What the Brits (Anglo-Saxons) were good at was to shoot their way into possesing new land (colonies), most of it discovered earlier by others. They were largely helped by local wars on the European mainland, especially the Napoleanic wars if I remember correctly. These weakened the other naval powers while leaving England largely unaffected.
This is new to me. This was very heavily disapproved off by the church, same as with selling your children. It may have happened but it was certainly no widespread culturally accepted phenomenon. It was actively punished.
The crusaders did massacre whole cities without a worry but I seriously doubt if they referred to cannibalism unless when faced with imminent starvation, which happened during the first crusade. It was never a BBQ kind of feasting of
doing their best
as you put it. This would have been surprising and most crusaders were extremely pious people, although they did reguard pagan peoples as sufficiently heretic to slaughter them by the thousants.
So you tell me.
Having spent 18 months helping to redevlop the Maori court and Pacific section of the Auckland Museum, the most important museum on the planet when it comes to the study of this subject I am really clear about the facts. I am Anglo-Saxon and have not trouble with that. I am well aware of Tasman etc and that they are well after the Polly seafaring explorers, hence my comments. What I do take seriously are what amount to racist commentary which mirrors that I listened to in that museum coming from people of European extraction who could just not stand the idea that that Pacific Islanders were well ahead of Europeans in exploring the area and who want forever to believe the Pacific peoples just got on rafts and crashed into islands in dumb luck.
I do not need to argue the pitch and toss here Wouter as I have not had to read these things as I have discussed them in some circumstances with the writers of the books and have made the very mounts some of the artifacts and boats sit on.
As to my comments on Cannibalism my reference is a book called
Flesh and Blood
but you could just google it and save me having to re read and quote pages. You guess that the Crusaders would not but your guess is wrong, so do your homework.
In this country people often remark disparagingly against Maori because of their eating of others. I always point out this book and lend it to them if needed.
Our history is clear that many English, Russian, German and American sailors found the temptation to eat human flesh the Maori offered at feasts too irresistable to say no to. They have chosen to do this after knowing better but Maori were just partaking in a long held cultural tradition.
Wouter, google Maara Crusades cannibalism
That should read cannibalism Maarra with 2 rs.
While it seems the adults were broiled the Crusaders put the babies and chil;dren on spits and bartbequed them.
You could read 'Consuming Passions
a book I think dedicated to Cannibalism in early modern Europe and
Cannibalism; a modern tabboo".
I would also remind you that the Catholic mass itself is a cannibal ritual where the people of the church are emplored to eat the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
I dont think Kiwi's where very proud of their history themselves, I went to highschool there for a year (near Whangarei) and dont remember a single history lesson.
Funny how a theme on the ancients great art/skill of finding new lands in the pacific turn into a discussion on who is the least evil.
Reading history I have not found one example of peaceful and 'succesful' colonialization. No doubt church dogma and western religion played a big part in how the west conquered lands and people all over the planet back then. We still carry some of the dogmas accepted and used back in the 14. century with us today, as pointed to by Warbird. Racism is still alive, and as ugly as ever. We in the western world should all be very grateful that the renaissance came to us trough some great men (men, as in both men and women), if not we would still judge each other by the bible. Not much has changed since then, but education do tend to help.
I have got to give one to the hometeam. Norse explorers relied on the sun and stars to navigate across oceans, but they also had
travel stones
, probably magnets. When they came to Newfoundland they named the natives
skræling
which in modern norwegian language means a sickly and thin person.. Racism as it's best as the settlements on Newfoundland was bested by the natives and an incredibly long line of supply.
Trivia: Newfoundland translates well to
new found land
in norwegian.
If you look at wikipedias short piece on history of navigation, the western bias is clearly there (but there are some pieces on polynesian and micronesian navigation in other sections): http:/
Hope the racism and navigational issues are solved til the Global Challenge at Zandvoort <img src=
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I think that is a fair obsrvation as the colonialsm that Wouter was talking about sits uncomfortably on people who are generally liberal and generous.
I paint about our history and politics often and I think we have some of the most exciting characters to be read about.
We should embrace our history more and learn to love our forfathers warts and all.
It is difficult for the Maori mindset to do this also as they have a strong tradition of Utu which is to balance slights felt done even many generations after the original wound.
As an asside, I never mentioned evil, as I am with Shakespear on this
nothing is either good nor bad as it is thinking makes it so.
I think that Europe carries with it an un gly history of elitism. When people talk about the savagery of Maoris I always point to the Spanish Inquisition, The English habit of hanging, drawing and quartering and head put on a pike. I would much rather have my head cleaved open and die instantly and be eaten.
I am ranting because it is winter and we have been having the worst storm in 150 years.
I will post photos soon of my freinds 75 foot wave peircing, solid wing cat which was punnished for being so tall. You will find that much more interesting.
That may have nothing to do with whether it was taught or not 🙂
Actually my recollection (70's) is that NZ history (pre-20th century) was mostly taught prior to high school and reasonably intensively. Unfortunately I don't remember much if any 20th century NZ history being taught in the compulsory curriculum (which also doesn't mean it wasn't taught :-)) - I have had to read about this as an adult.
I just recently heard that a church made a precise move and elected to pay $660,000,000.00 USD to compensate victims of their recent practices in order to avoid being brought before the United States courts to face charges of child abuse.
Is this the same bunch that believes God only listens to them?
Wait. . .there are a lot of those! <img src=
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This would be the Catholic church. and they did not make the payment to avoid being taken to court. They made the victims wait until the CEO was going to have to testify and THEN they paid out.
What that church does not understand is that that is the first wave. After the sexual abuse there will be class actions for spiritual abuse as they have stolen the ability for people to investigate and decide on their own spirituality by telling them that those such as buddists are evil and the devils children.
And yes, all Christian think they will go to heaven and the rest of us will go to the devil.....and burn for ever....
I'm pretty sure that would require the existence of legislation against
spiritual abuse
(however you choose to define that), and therefore require the state to determine what are, and are not, acceptable religious beliefs. The thought makes me shudder.
Anyhow, I think most people are here to talk about sailing...
Sailing is a religious experience. Of course, we do have the multihull types who will go straight to heaven and those leaner heretics.
We are sailors true but sometimes we are aloud to think outside that square. If I am outa line just tell me and I'll flag it. Some people have shown an interest in it. It would not require defining what are acceptable spiritual beliefs but how those beliefs are taught and reinforced. Everyone should be aloud to believe what they like for sure. The Catholic church stole that from me as I was too terrified to think of investigating any other form of spiritual way of being. When I was five through ten I was being told every day that there were demons everywhere waiting for me on the way home and even in my home and that I had to keep a constant conversation with god to stay safe.
If I went and told your five year old every day that demons were everywhere and that your child would burn in hell if the demons got to him or her you would rightly come to my house and whack me....hard. Why can churches prey so clinically on children and leave such terrible visions on their young mind? There is a huge social cost with thousands of people with PTS.
I am not only talking bout Christianity. We can see the results other religions have created with mad dogma and the way they are delivered it.
I see it like this.
There are only two levels of evil.
1. Evil
2. Not Evil
All of mankind falls in catagory 1. All of everything else falls in catagory 2.
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Miguel
I read an interesting book about 20 years ago, The Songs Of Satawal(?). I think the navigator was blind. The knowledge was passed on in song. One part that I remember, was the old guy saying he could tell the type/direction of the waves, by the way his balls felt!
surely you speak of his golf balls and not his tennis balls!
If felt was involved they were probably billiard balls.
I never felt anything.
For swells to remain perceptible after travelling hundreds of miles, they must have their origin in regions of strong and persistent winds, the more important swells originating in
permanent
weather systems such as the Trades. . . The other main source is the Southern Ocean belt. . .
Holding course by swells seems always to be a matter more of feel than sight. . . Puluwatans too 'steer by the feel of the waves under the canoe, not visually'. One might perhaps be tempted to refer to keeping course by the swells as 'steering by the seat of one's pants', if it were not for the more anatomically specific detail supplied by the veteran island skipper Captain Ward, who writes, 'I have heard from several sources, the the most sensitive balance was a man's testicles, and that when at night or when the horizon was obscured, or inside the cabin this was the method used to find the focus of the swells off an island' . . .
Examples of the practice of orientatin by swells can be collected from virtually any part of the Pacific.
We, the Navigators, pp.84-86.
Clearly, we would all be better to sail
commando
!