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Should the Code 0 gennaker be used at the Olympics

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(@wouter)
Posts: 9363
Three Star Admiral Registered
 
Quote
I agree it appears the code zero Chupacabra has not workout for team USA, but I also don't think this regatta is a satifactory test of it.

And why not, this sail was devellopped by 3 highly professional teams over a period of years in a class with highly skilled and dependable sailors using the conventional setup and thus acting as the benchmark. How much better can a real life test be ?

I find it pretty instructive that 2 out of 3 teams who were party in developping this sail choose not to use it. Apparent they knew indeed what its limitation are and decided against it as soon as the predictions didn't show a series of days with the assumed narrow band of conditions.

I compare it to the test with the hydrofoils in the C-class; sure some say that that too was only one event with only 4 boat participating. However, for something to be a

new wapon

it needs to show significantly improved results at one point. Both hydrofoils and this code-0 aren't doing that in their first real tests. As a result the questions presents itself whether this pathway is sufficienty promising to continue. Again the current results are far more supportive of a negative answer then any positive one.

Of course this all withing the limits set by the Tornado class rules and upwind-downwind bouy races. The code-0 has proven itself within the other classes like the ORMA-60's and indeed the Extreme-40's. However mostly for other reasons then all out performance.

Wouter


 
Posted : August 19, 2008 5:08 am
(@simonp)
Posts: 189
Member
 

Wouter,

An reason why this regatta might not be a good place to make decisions on the code 0 after the americans poor regatta is, maybe, they just had a bad regatta.

Tom Slingsby current Laser world champion also had a poor regatta result finishing in 22. Can't blame that on a poorly perfoming Chupacabra.


 
Posted : August 19, 2008 6:19 am
(@Anonymous 13024)
Posts: 4319
 

Skill, mental conditioning and equipment. Charlie and John have proven that they are good under pressure (Athens). They have good understanding of the geography/meteorology. That leaves the equipment.

To see what they say about it themself: http://www.t-squaredracing.com/content/view/103/25/


 
Posted : August 19, 2008 6:50 am
Matt M
(@matt-m)
Posts: 686
Member
 

Sailing is a weather dependant sport and everyone knows you can not depend on the weather.

ALWAYS choose your equipment for the versatility and abity to perform in the widest possible range of conditions.

If you are playing the numbers game and can change equipment like a recreational windsurfer changes sail size as the wind varies through the day, OK. If you are planning for a week or longer event well off into the future, selecting equipment for a narrow performance band will be a big mistake more times than not.


 
Posted : August 19, 2008 8:16 am
(@Anonymous 37755)
Posts: 772
 
Quote
I find it pretty instructive that 2 out of 3 teams who were party in developing this sail choose not to use it.

There were only 2 of the 3 teams at the Olympics. So only 1 of the 3 teams choose not to use the sail.

I have used similar sails and I suspect the problem has to do with the difference between testing and racing. I found a hooter to be a big advantage when sailing against only a few boat, in clean steady air. I found it sucked when faced with the chaos of many boats going in different directions and shifty varying winds


 
Posted : August 19, 2008 9:17 am
(@wouter)
Posts: 9363
Three Star Admiral Registered
 
Quote
There were only 2 of the 3 teams at the Olympics. So only 1 of the 3 teams choose not to use the sail.

Yes, but Bundock and Ashby had a code-0 project of their own that was pretty well developped. They too decided against it and that makes 3 teams in total even when the PUR guys fell away as you say.

Wouter


 
Posted : August 19, 2008 9:32 am
(@tornadokc247)
Posts: 1198
Master Chief Registered
 

From Team USA Blog:

Quote
After three years of training here in China we embraced the almost universal belief that this would be a light air venue. The big negative is that we simply made the wrong choice in choosing to race with our light-air Chupacabra gennaker, based on a weather forecast that never happened.

Today with a strong current running up the course, we had very quick upwind legs and long downwind legs. The wind out of the west was very shifty and puffy, blowing between eight and 15 knots. Conditions were difficult with lots of position flip-flops in the fleet. We sailed really, really well today, the best we have in this regatta, but our sail choice worked against us. We were always making gains on the short upwind legs and even sometimes on the long hauls downwind. But the fact was that the small spinnaker killed us downwind.

Today we learned over and over and over again, a lesson that we’ve already learned a million times - no two regattas are ever the same and it’s never like you think it’s going to be.

So, having a strong current shortened the time spent going to weather, increased it goign downhill...further minimizing the benefit on the CO.

Seems the winds were above what had been seen in the 3 year lead up. I'm not convinced the C0 is a failure based on this regatta.


 
Posted : August 19, 2008 11:38 am
(@wouter)
Posts: 9363
Three Star Admiral Registered
 

Quote
So, having a strong current shortened the time spent going to weather, increased it goign downhill...further minimizing the benefit on the CO.

one could also have said :

... further aggrevating the drawbacks of the CO.

Kind of halve full halve empty type of things.

Wouter


 
Posted : August 20, 2008 4:40 am
Tony_F18
(@Tony_FX1)
Posts: 2315
Captain Registered
 

Team USA is now in last place, even behind the Ukrainian and Chinese teams (the Chinese even scored an OCS and DNF).
Results

Talk about a bad case of Code-0 tunnel vision with the <img src=

alt=

/>
[Linked Image]


 
Posted : August 20, 2008 6:04 am
TEAMVMG
(@TEAMVMG)
Posts: 1188
Master Chief Registered
 

So we can probably wrap this thread up with...

NO


 
Posted : August 20, 2008 9:51 am
(@Anonymous 13274)
Posts: 3111
 

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Images from Andy's SailJuice blog. The sail has a specific application. If the Tornado series had started a week earlier, the outcome would have been different, and the conclusions just as invalid.

Both the Tornado and Star classes had significant equipment differences that, while within the rules, make some people uncomfortable. We'll see if ISAF or the IOC decide there are lessons to be taken away. If the event had been as light as the vast majority of us expected, the US teams in the Star and Tornado might have done much better, which would very likely have led to some serious discussion about

one-design-ness.

Now I wonder if those conversations will take place. <img src=

alt=

/>


 
Posted : August 20, 2008 11:53 am
Tony_F18
(@Tony_FX1)
Posts: 2315
Captain Registered
 

I feel a bit sorry for the Belgian team though, they dropped their mast after the 1st race today theirby dropping out of the medal race, despite the RC waiting for them to sail the 2nd race.
[Linked Image]


 
Posted : August 20, 2008 2:39 pm
(@stank)
Posts: 5061
One Star Admiral Registered
 

what happened?


 
Posted : August 20, 2008 2:58 pm
(@tornadokc247)
Posts: 1198
Master Chief Registered
 
Quote
what happened?

Gotta tape those spilt rings folks! <img src=

alt=

/>


 
Posted : August 20, 2008 3:26 pm
(@Tri_X_Troll)
Posts: 225
Mate Registered
 

So, the tornado, hobie wave, and taipan have all had luck with the chupacabra\code zero\hooter\upwind gennaker. What other classes have been able to pull it off?

I frequent inland lakes that often have light and shifty air. 4-8 knot winds are not uncommon. Could I pull it off on a hobie 16?

More importantly, could it be pulled off on a Mystere 4.3??? And would it be class legal on the 4.3????? Yeah, I'm thinking about buying one.


 
Posted : August 20, 2008 9:15 pm
(@Anonymous 6548)
Posts: 1652
 

It does not look like the T has pulled it off at all.

Could be a bit quicker upwind in the 3 to 7 knot range but all else, forget about it.

Don't forget this sail was developed with 3 to 7 knots in mind against a strong current against you upwind. Without the current on the nose upwind, you are giving away a large advantage to the standard boat around the bouys.


 
Posted : August 20, 2008 9:49 pm
Luiz
 Luiz
(@luiz)
Posts: 1238
Member
 
Quote
Both the Tornado and Star classes had significant equipment differences that, while within the rules, make some people uncomfortable. We'll see if ISAF or the IOC decide there are lessons to be taken away. If the event had been as light as the vast majority of us expected, the US teams in the Star and Tornado might have done much better, which would very likely have led to some serious discussion about

one-design-ness.

Now I wonder if those conversations will take place. <img src=

alt=

/>

One-design may be good for the Olympics, but is incredibly boring. Intelligence and improvement require more space. The most politically correct one-design would be the Optimist. The youngest athletes in the games would deserve a lot of media attention.

The Chupacabra reminds me of Eric Tabarly. His open minded developments made him the greatest rule optimizer/bender. The Fastnet winning schooner with an enormous genoa between the masts forced a rule update. The depleted uranium keel forced another one, and the water ballasted solo transpac another. His hydrofoil tri motivated the categorization (does this word exist?) of the transatlantic record to separate monohulls from multihulls. The sea lawyers really had to run to keep up with his pace.

None remembers the sea lawyers who fixed the rules after his inovations (and achievements) - but all sailors remember the great man.

The Chupacabra is an innovation that Tabarly could have created. He would have loved it. The initiative is admirable of those who developed the sail, as is the courage of those who dared use it. Wining or not.

Cheers,


 
Posted : August 20, 2008 10:39 pm
(@tornadokc247)
Posts: 1198
Master Chief Registered
 
Quote
Quote
Both the Tornado and Star classes had significant equipment differences that, while within the rules, make some people uncomfortable. We'll see if ISAF or the IOC decide there are lessons to be taken away. If the event had been as light as the vast majority of us expected, the US teams in the Star and Tornado might have done much better, which would very likely have led to some serious discussion about

one-design-ness.

Now I wonder if those conversations will take place. <img src=

alt=

/>

One-design may be good for the Olympics, but is incredibly boring. Intelligence and improvement require more space. The most politically correct one-design would be the Optimist. The youngest athletes in the games would deserve a lot of media attention.

The Chupacabra reminds me of Eric Tabarly. His open minded developments made him the greatest rule optimizer/bender. The Fastnet winning schooner with an enormous genoa between the masts forced a rule update. The depleted uranium keel forced another one, and the water ballasted solo transpac another. His hydrofoil tri motivated the categorization (does this word exist?) of the transatlantic record to separate monohulls from multihulls. The sea lawyers really had to run to keep up with his pace.

None remembers the sea lawyers who fixed the rules after his inovations (and achievements) - but all sailors remember the great man.

The Chupacabra is an innovation that Tabarly could have created. He would have loved it. The initiative is admirable of those who developed the sail, as is the courage of those who dared use it. Wining or not.

Cheers,

Well Said Luiz!
<img src=

alt=

/>


 
Posted : August 21, 2008 12:03 am
(@danward)
Posts: 204
Mate Registered
 
Quote
One-design may be good for the Olympics, but is incredibly boring.

For those who are primarily interested in sailboat technology perhaps OD is boring. For those of us who are interested in the art and science of sailboat racing OD is definitely not boring.


 
Posted : August 21, 2008 9:44 am
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