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(@isotope42)
Posts: 807
Member
 
Quote
RCs and racers in general should start using a strategically placed barging mark, such that the practice obviously won't pay.

Every time I've seen a barging mark in place, it was to protect the committee boat from bargers, not the sailors.

Regards,
Eric


 
Posted : May 9, 2006 3:16 pm
(@isotope42)
Posts: 807
Member
 
Quote
I think you have your thinking backwards here. If you got a good start at the pin you already have ROW. If you tack to port you will of course lose it. If you get to windward of the fleet you will lose it. You have ROW over all of the boats behind and to windward of you. You are leeward boat. You might be clear ahead of many boats. You are on starboard tack. You can choose to point or foot at will. Everybody between you and the committee boat is under your control. All other things being equal, a square line, neither side of the course favored, no issues with current, then the pin is the place to be.

Sorry, but I have to disagree again. If everything is equal, then anywhere in clear air with a clear lane is the place to be (and preferably in the middle). If you start on the far left, then everybody else controls your tack. I don't think that is often a winning strategy. If you want to go left, then go left, but don't let everybody else force you there.

Regards,
Eric


 
Posted : May 9, 2006 3:23 pm
(@isotope42)
Posts: 807
Member
 
Quote
NO RC that I know deliberately sets a committe favored line.... THEY WANT the boats down the line...

The race committee knows they have set a good line when the racers spread themselves along it. That means they feel it is even. Typically, that means giving a pin-end advantge of 5-10 degrees, but that amount varies by fleet. If the entire fleet bunches up at one end or the other, a good RC will postpone the start and correct the line.

Quote
My reading of the guidelines is 1 and 1/2 boats of room per boat

That is the rule of thumb, and the length should also take into consideration wind and current, and the speed of the boats (longer line for high winds, adverse current, or high-performance boats).

Quote
RC's should err on the side of a generous line length... not a sqeaky tight line.

We've had opposite experience here. Most RC I've seen tend to set lines that are too long, rather than too short. Either way though, it's better to have the right length. Most skilled Race Committees nowadays use a GPS to set the line.

Quote
New racers should be coached about how this game is going to play and advised to pick a spot that is not quite so contested

Excellent advice!

Regards,
Eric


 
Posted : May 9, 2006 3:37 pm
(@isotope42)
Posts: 807
Member
 
Quote
Another common situation is the one where a windward boat is about to be pushed over the starting line by a leeward boat. Leeward hails "up up up" while the windward boat replies "Hey, you are pushing me over" and stays put.

In this case, I recommend heading up just enough so that you have to bear away to avoid contact. Then hail "protest" and foot away. Don't let the windward boat disrupt your start any more than necessary but make sure he did actually fail to keep clear (which is more than not responding to your hail).

Regards,
Eric


 
Posted : May 9, 2006 3:42 pm
(@isotope42)
Posts: 807
Member
 
Quote
Or you may encounter the one (as I did) where you shout "up, up up!" and your opponent responds with "F**k off!"

In this case, be sure to put "2" along with "11" in the "Rules alleged to have been broken" section of the protest form. If the protest committee finds that your opponent broke rule 2, then the DSQ will become DND ("disqualification non-discardable").

regards,
Eric


 
Posted : May 9, 2006 3:56 pm
scooby_simon
(@simonJlongstaff)
Posts: 3496
Captain Registered
 

Ideal start

10 degree port bias

You get the pin

you sail away form the fleet

You tack onto port after a couple of minutes and cross the whole fleet.

Only done it a few times, but it feels soooooo good crossing a fleet of 100+ boats and (basically) waving good bye to them.


 
Posted : May 9, 2006 5:25 pm
C2 Mike
(@TigerMike)
Posts: 329
Mate Registered
 
Quote
Quote
15- When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat's actions.

16.1- When a right of way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.

These are the two rules that apply. Depending on the space between the boats and how fast they are moving, the windward boat may not be able to manuever at all (i.e. - moving slowly and very close, since putting the helm down will cause the stern of the boat to move towards the bow of the leeward boat).

Coming from behind and trying to luff an almost stationary boat in close quarters at the start is a good way to get yourself a bad start.

You need to keep your speed up to drive through the wind shadow of the windward boat and get your nose out into clean air. Use your momentum to luff up gradually and noisily (UP!, UP!, UP!), then bear off into the hole you just created and foot away as the gun goes off, leaving your "victim" still motionless and gasping for air.

The windward boat is obligated to leave room between the two. The definition of "keeping clear" is:

One boat keeps clear of another if the other can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and, when the boats are overlapped ont he same tack, if the leeward boat can change course in boath directions without immediatly making contact with the windward boat.

So, the windward boat *must* leave enough room that the leeward boat can change course if it so desires otherwise they may protest (ie if there is a very narrow gap there). Luffing rights aside, the leeward boat is not permitted to plow into the windward boat and *both* boats may be disqualified.

Tiger Mike


 
Posted : May 9, 2006 6:41 pm
C2 Mike
(@TigerMike)
Posts: 329
Mate Registered
 
Quote
Very informative thread, but I want to make sure I understand this:

Quote
BTW, rule 16.1 is why you must "close-out" or luff a barging boat BEFORE she gets to the committee boat. If you wait, then she no longer has room to respond to your luff and must be permitted room (it is not seamanlike to hit other boats). Racers commonly think that bargers have no rights at any time and that is simply not the case. Luff while they have an escape route or you will both be wrong.

This is only true if the leeward boat changes course to luff, right? Maybe my question needs a better description:

I'm leeward and holding a steady close hauled course that will take me right next to the committee boat.

A windward barger comes reaching in and gets his nose inside the committee boat.

Before the barger gets clear ahead, I have to bear away to avoid contact.

The barger has fouled me, correct?

Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi

Correct. Your on a 16. Get used to it

Tiger Mike


 
Posted : May 9, 2006 6:43 pm
(@Anonymous 39155)
Posts: 3112
 
Quote
Quote
Very informative thread, but I want to make sure I understand this:

Quote
BTW, rule 16.1 is why you must "close-out" or luff a barging boat BEFORE she gets to the committee boat. If you wait, then she no longer has room to respond to your luff and must be permitted room (it is not seamanlike to hit other boats). Racers commonly think that bargers have no rights at any time and that is simply not the case. Luff while they have an escape route or you will both be wrong.

This is only true if the leeward boat changes course to luff, right? Maybe my question needs a better description:

I'm leeward and holding a steady close hauled course that will take me right next to the committee boat.

A windward barger comes reaching in and gets his nose inside the committee boat.

Before the barger gets clear ahead, I have to bear away to avoid contact.

The barger has fouled me, correct?

Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi

Correct. Your on a 16. Get used to it

Tiger Mike

Or just run over the S.O.B! You can camoflage this into a defensible act by "looking off". When you see the barger approaching, look the other direction and don't say a word! After the carnage, say as meekly as possible,"sorry, I just didn't see you."

If you're sailing a H16, it will always come out with less damage because all the other boats are lighter and more fragile. You won't lose anything competitively, because you've already been cheated out of a fair start. If there should be a protest hearing, just don't bother to show. And remember, the more damage you do, the less likely the a** hole will be to try it again!

Of course you'll want to deny everything! Just repeat endlessly, "I'm so sorry."


 
Posted : May 9, 2006 7:05 pm
(@Anonymous 39155)
Posts: 3112
 
Quote
Quote
RCs and racers in general should start using a strategically placed barging mark, such that the practice obviously won't pay.

Every time I've seen a barging mark in place, it was to protect the committee boat from bargers, not the sailors.

Regards,
Eric

That's my point. If you move the barging mark downwind a few boat lengths AND make the line between it and the committe boat end of the line a "no go zone" the bargers loose incentive.


 
Posted : May 9, 2006 7:19 pm
Jake Kohl
(@jake)
Posts: 11744
Three Star Admiral Registered
 
Quote
Ideal start

10 degree port bias

You get the pin

you sail away form the fleet

You tack onto port after a couple of minutes and cross the whole fleet.

Only done it a few times, but it feels soooooo good crossing a fleet of 100+ boats and (basically) waving good bye to them.

Mosley and I pulled that off last year and crossed Greg and Jacques at the NAF18 North Americans - was the high point of my year!


 
Posted : May 9, 2006 10:07 pm
(@stank)
Posts: 5061
One Star Admiral Registered
 

Nothing makes a race (even if you don't win) like port tacking the fleet. My best attempt was a lake regatta where we crossed all but one (11 total) boat. Had to duck him, and for some reason he didn't tack to cover. We were in light air, so maybe he figured he'd lose too much boat speed.

Ended up winning

A

mark (which was too sweet), but lost a place with a bad spin douse at

C

. Still, it's waaaay cool to see those faces when you're crossing them....


 
Posted : May 11, 2006 3:34 pm
(@flatlander)
Posts: 1108
Master Chief Registered
 

We were successful in our first ever port tack start, in front of twenty some odd boats, talk about adrenaline flowing!!! It was so obvious (several HAD to be thinking the same thing), we lazied more than halfway down the line until about 45 seconds left, ducked out, tacked below the pin, across the line right at the gun, only had one boat follow us. We won the race to boot.

That experience has ruined me. I've thought hard about, came close to, or gone ahead and attempted a port start in every regatta since then, with no success. That slight port bias is so enticing.


 
Posted : May 11, 2006 4:12 pm
(@ncmbm)
Posts: 431
Chief Registered
 

I read every post in this thread and being a newbie racer that quit after several bad situations would like to make a suggestion.

A

fleet sailors and their aggression shouldn't be on the line at the same time as

C

fleet sailors. I own and sail spin boats. I have been on the race course with spin boats. For a new racer spin boats are terrifing at the marks and starts, fast and unpredictable. The last thing a newbie wants is to be in the way, sometimes getting out of the way seems impossible. The aggression many sailors exhibit on the water is the main reason newbies give up on racing. Just because I think it would be fun to go out and race does not mean I have internalized all the rules and understand what each of them means. If

A

class sailors want to ram each other, push the rules to the limit, etc., more power to them. Why force a newbie to mix it up with them at all. They don't want the newbie in their way and he doesn't want to be there either. As far as I can tell this is no different than road rage, everyone thinks they are right. Hell, you guys argue over the rules and most of you are very experienced sailors. If experienced sailors question the rules how could anyone expect newbies to get it.


 
Posted : May 11, 2006 4:45 pm
 robi
(@robi)
Posts: 2686
Captain Registered
 
Quote
I read every post in this thread and being a newbie racer that quit after several bad situations would like to make a suggestion.

A

fleet sailors and their aggression shouldn't be on the line at the same time as

C

fleet sailors. I own and sail spin boats. I have been on the race course with spin boats. For a new racer spin boats are terrifing at the marks and starts, fast and unpredictable. The last thing a newbie wants is to be in the way, sometimes getting out of the way seems impossible. The aggression many sailors exhibit on the water is the main reason newbies give up on racing. Just because I think it would be fun to go out and race does not mean I have internalized all the rules and understand what each of them means. If

A

class sailors want to ram each other, push the rules to the limit, etc., more power to them. Why force a newbie to mix it up with them at all. They don't want the newbie in their way and he doesn't want to be there either. As far as I can tell this is no different than road rage, everyone thinks they are right. Hell, you guys argue over the rules and most of you are very experienced sailors. If experienced sailors question the rules how could anyone expect newbies to get it.

I agree with you 100% sometimes some

GOOD

sailors can be over the edge and mess it up bad for the newbies.


 
Posted : May 11, 2006 4:54 pm
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