Why so few women skippers?

I guess if she sails then she is a tomboy and if she beats you at the races then she is a ____________ . (better sailor than you)

Mary, I'll go out on a limb here (if someone cuts the limb out from under me you'll be the blame )

IMO a tomboy will wear a dress if forced to, and play the games that normally guys play even if it means injury is imminent. They are tougher than most and probably will not be found behind a desk answering phones for a stuffed shirt corporate executive. Not that there is anything wrong with that of course (dang you've got to cover your #$% nowadays).

Butch, IMO, is being more like a man than most men and is not into mushy stuff like, well ... dating, dancing, watching movies that don't include machine guns and blowing up stuff.

I'll stop now before I start to get hate mail.

Clayton

The interesting question is where did the name "tomboy" come from--that is, what is its derivation? Its kind of fun to look up common phrases to see how they derived. Its surprising how many come from nautical terms. For example, "three sheets to the wind", which means someone out of control (usually drunk) comes from the fact that small sailing sloops have three sheets that control the sails; starboard and port jib sheets and a main sheet. If the sloop was "three sheets to the wind", it meant that the boat had all its control lines flying downwind, not cleated to anything and therefore not controlling the sails or boat. Anyone else have some common phrases that have interesting origins?

Merry Christmas to all! Santa is on his way!
David
H20

Rick has given me his opinion of what a tomboy is. He says it is a woman who can be very feminine but who also can play on a co-ed softball team, play tennis, sail, ride a motorcycle, intelligently discuss sports with the guys, cook, sew, clean house, take out the garbage, chop wood and stoke the stove, feed the pets, and nurture children. He said, in other words, a tomboy is a well-rounded woman.

So I asked him what you call a man who can play football, race motocross, play tennis, play softball in a co-ed league and also can intelligently discuss fashion and hair styles with the ladies, cook, sew, clean house and nurture children. I asked, “Wouldn’t that be a well-rounded man?” Rick said, “No, that would be a sissy.”

(Webster's Dictionary, please take note.)

Thank you Rick,

and apparently you left out "shoot her Ruger .22 and her Mauser 30.06 more accurately than her ex AND her beau".

I'm different than most girls, and I'm ok with that, whatever they want to call it, I dont givash*t. Why do you care, you?

sea ya
tami

I'll back Rick on that definition.

My goddaughter will be here tomorrow. She's been on the catsailors site and found the 12:1 [I bought ] in a pic. She now says "that since a I have 2 mainsheets systems one can go on ths FMS20" so she "can handle the skipper duties her self". She has mastered the wrapping an old man around her little finger part and is well on her way into manipulating me into giving her the boat to sail. But she does it in a straight forwrd manner. "You're gonna give me that boat after you teach me to sail it." At least i get to go...

The input of some on this thread has highlighted her behavior. She likes road bikes, playing softball/soccer, Nascar, watching football, catsailing, trisailing, refinishing hulls, talking to old men in controlled scenarios [rest homes, church, marinas, etc] as well as trying to con me out of my dog...[dog is off limits even though when she spends the night I never see the dog]. I would call her a young "Charlie" girl for those old enough to remember. She likes jeans but will dress up without a fuss for an occasion that requires it. Does not like/wear much makeup or jewelry. She likes her hair long but keeps it mostly in a pony tail style with no hair on her face.

Tomorrow we put the F25c in the water and she will start the outboard without help from me. This I want to see but I have no doubt it will happen because shes read the manual several times. We maybe there all day but it will start.

I hope you all have as good a Christmas day as i know I will,

thom

How about "He is a loose cannon" ?

Comes from the old sailing battleships on which the mouth loaded cannons needed to be pulled back to relaod and than push forward out of their ports to fire. The cannons were on wheels therefor and kept in check by many ropes (ooops lines) and pully blocks. Sometime a cannon brok loose and the rolling of the ship in the waves would run the heavy cannon on wheels all around over the gundeck or just straight through the wood work on the otherside taking everything with it. Try to stop on of those ! Hence "loose cannon" = Big trouble

Wouter

So ...

What ever the defintions are we don't have enough of them right ?

And that goes for the sissies as well !

Wouter

Why male ear piercing of the left ear is cool and the right is not:

As I learned this morning from Tim Zimmermann's book "The Race", in the mid 1800's the world had just figured out that it made more sense to sail from Australia and China back to England (or to the eastern U.S.) by sailing the Southern Ocean in a route of circumnavigation. It became customary and dignified for sailors who had sailed around Cape Horn of South America to pierce the ear closest to the Cape as they blew past (and survived)...the left ear. And with this I presume that to pierce the right ear meant you were clearly headed in the wrong direction!

Speaking of definitions, and back on the topic of this thread, perhaps I should rephrase my original question and ask "Why so few women on the HELM?"

To me, skipper and helmsperson are not synonymous words. On a two-person cat, there is a helmsperson (driver) and a foredeck person (sail-handler). Both of those people are members of the crew. And either of them can be the skipper. The skipper is the person who calls the shots, makes the decisions, plans the tactics and strategy, decides when to zig and when to zag.

Sometimes the skipper is the driver and sometimes he or she is the sail-handler.

I can understand why a lot of women do not feel comfortable with being the skipper, but I can NOT understand why they would not want to drive if the other crew member is the skipper.

Obviously, driving is the least physically demanding job and, in most cases, best suited to a woman (lighter touch on the helm, better feel for the speed, more able to focus and concentrate on the telltales and keeping the boat in the groove). Women learn this stuff really fast.

In the light to moderate wind conditions that dominate most of the U.S. in the summer, it makes the most sense for the woman to be at the back of the boat steering and the man up forward where most cats need the weight in light air. In heavier air where you need the weight back (and where the woman might be more intimidated steering in big seas and wind), switch and put the woman in front and the man in back.

And you can even switch positions during the race, depending upon who does what best on different parts of the race course. Back in his early days on the Tornado, Rick put his youngest son (about 10 years old at the time) on the helm so that Rick could be out on the trapeze and handle the sails and call the shots. Rick would be on the helm for the start and maybe for crucial mark roundings, and then they would switch places so Todd could steer and Rick could be in a better position to balance the boat and trim the sails and call the shots on the open portions of the course.

If a 10-year-old child can helm a Tornado, any grown woman ought to be able to helm any beach-cat.

Good points.

I our case the problem is that fact that the helmsman is also regarded the skipper and there is a rule which states that the crew may not switch roles. We are going to request dispensation for this this coming year. So why is this a problem for us. The Start !

The start often is a whole lot of screaming and shouting and knowing when to blink and when not to blink. Typically other men don't try to push their luck with a male helm. My crew doesn't really feel comfortable in this environment. The other issue is that I've been doing starts for years now and actually have become quite handy at it. Being competitive as she is she doesn't want to loose out on this very important part of the race.

I can see myself do the start, trap out first using the forward wires and walk to the front while passing the tiller to my crew. As you say Mary I would probably stay the skipper and call the shifts and tacks.

So the answer become "Why not, indeed" ; only issue in my case is the skipper rule which doesn't make much sense to me anyway. On bigger vessels the skipper often doesn't steer himself as well.

Wouter

Wouter, what class are you talking about that does not allow the crew members to switch off on the helm? Rick says the only multihull class he knows of that does not allow it is the F-28R, and that is because they don't want the owner bringing in a ringer to take the helm.

When Rick and his son were switching off on the helm in the Tornado class, somebody protested, and the jury refused to even hear the protest, saying there is no such thing as skipper and crew, there are two crew members on the boat, and no rule to prevent them from doing any of the crewing jobs on the boat, which include helming, or from switching jobs during the race.

I agree. Back in my T days I sailed with three women who loved to steer but that was it. They didn't want anywhere near the mast raising/dropping, boat launching, etc. But when it came time to steer they wanted the helm.

One was an Army nurse just back from SE Asia. She showed up every day she could. Why? When she sailed the boat thats all she could think about [DSS]. She married a catsailor and moved to California. I believe they just bought an F9A this year after giving their original 1977 Nacra to their daughter. I believe it was a 1977...it was the first year they came out.

The other two bought an H16 and a P16. Both asked me to negotiate the deals. Don't ask me why because all I did was follow their instructions from 3x5 cards with price and terms. After that it took both of them less than a year to get engaged/married. Basically they married the same guy...tall slender strong and a catsailor.

My god daughter has realized that a FMS 20 is going to be more boat than she thought and now wants to crew for awhile. Being 12,she has the right to start off as a crew and work into the skipper position. She took what was left of my sailing library back with her today. As well as the phone#/email addresses of the two women that sailed with me earlier this year. How do women seem to be "attached" almost instantly. Whats the connection or where does it come from? The three of them were together more than she and I spent together. She came to see me... Even my dog ignores me when they are around.

Paula I lost your email. That pic of you and your "tomboy" looks like you have alot of good times ahead.

thom

It is not a class rule but a club / national organisation rule.

But I think the orgins of the rule are vague enough in order to kill it.

I think it has more to fo with tradition then that there really was a consious decision to force this.

Anyway we'll see at the new years meeting.

Wouter

Mary,
You made an interesting point about the way women learn:

I taught skiing in Vail for nine seasons and in the majority of cases when I had a husband and wife in the same class who skied at about the same level, the wife improved more quickly. This was due, in part, to most women's style of using technique rather than brute force and ignorance. It also had a snowball effect: the wife felt satisfaction and accomplishment, therefore could relax and continue to improve, while the husband just got more and more pissed off that the wife was doing better, and therefore he was distracted and couldn't learn.

I also noticed that husbands who tried to teach wives how to ski almost always failed miserably. I could see them from the lift. The semi-competent husband is shouting direction at the wife as she stumbles down some beginner run. The wife gets sick of being shouted at and heads to the lodge for a coctail (or to sign up for a ski lesson) and the husband goes his own way.

Apply this to sailing and you might see a similar situation. Since it's a male-dominated sport, it's usually the men (husbands?) teaching women how to sail. Since it's easier to teach from the helm, where you can see what's going on, women first learn to crew. The men, who hate to relinquish control, don't bother to teach the helm position, and the women remain intimidated by the mystery of stearing and are satisfied with the progress they make at sail handling. It's also often a male skipper who is still learning who tries to coach a female crew and scares her so badly with his mistakes that she's affraid of taking the helm.

In cases where I've raced against women drivers, they have been very competitive and unafraid. In one case, a woman in our H-20 fleet called up the top sailor (a man) at the start and forced him over early. He was furious and told her that she wasn't supposed to do that and threatened to "come after her twice as hard next time." His ego was obviously bruised and she was hurt that someone she thought was a mentor would turn on her for making an agressive, but totally appropriate move.

I hate to support stereotypes, but perhaps it's an overly aggressive male ego that unconsciously keeps women off of the helm.

Slight Digression, but Mary and I lived Vail for almost ten years. She was the first editor of the Vail Daily. I was an entertainer for apres ski music.
Great times.

I can also relate this to skiing. When Mary came to Vail I did nothing to teach her to ski. She did it all on her own. I was out of town on a road gig and she took lessons every day.
Then one day she asked if she could ski with us (you know.., the guys!) We did the bowls, northeast under the Lions Head lift and the rest and she was right there with us the entire time.
Wouldn't have been, had I tried to help.

Rick

My wife just didn't like being blasted in the face with cold salt water. Also, I once dumped her into the Gulf during a red tide outbreak. Gives "swimming with the fishes" a whole new meaning.

Then again, a college perfesser once told me women are more highly evolved than men. Somehting about dentition but I fell asleep.

Pete in Cape Coral

Dentition? Cutting teeth?

Mary,

By now I'm sure you've noticed the high number of responses. Obviously, an excellent question! As for me, I can't offer an answer; when I learned to sail, as a kid, there were just as many women (girls really, as we were all young) at the helm as men (boys). I must also add they were all excellent sailors - demonstrating good seamanship and often leading the pack in local races.