I'm just mentioning some differences between Dynautic and the boat I've seen in Katwijk some time ago I must add. I've also seen pictures from Florida before you were a dealer. From the info I have seen I noted the differences. As pictures speak louder than words....
P.S. Was this a personal, chairman, dealer or orginiser comment?
Mirjan,
Were is this line of reasoning exactly going to ?
I've seen both makes in detail and I can name a few more differences not all in favour of the Dynautic Blade. Afterall no boat is ever perfect.
The European style VWM Blade F16 (version 2007) Hans is referring to is not the same as the 2005 VWM Blade F16 you saw at Noordwijk. Hans used his many years of experience in boat building and repairs to arrive at this 2007 version of the VWM Blade F16. There are some very clever things incorporated in this new version. Things like platform stiffness have been doubled.
You can not possibly know the make-up of this 2007 version of the Blade F16 or even of the 2006 version of it. Therefor your comments like :
bulkheads vs more bulkheads
are remarkable to say the least.
I can testify that Hans is correct in all his comments so far and that your statements are less so.
Who are you exactly ?
And I made these statement in name of all the roles I have played in the past. Chairman, organisor, part time dealor, advisor to both VWM and Dynautic, and the rest.
Wouter
I didn't see any boat in Noordwijk but in Katwijk. The boats owner is called Jaap as I've been told. According to my information you have been at Dynautic in 2004. At that time no composite Blade was present at Dynautic, so what are you talking about knowing Dynautic's products?
Your reaction is exactly what I've expected.
Why are the previous chairman and current chairman located at the same sailing club?
I personally think, there is a conflict of interest when a dealer is a chairman of an organisation and an organiser of an event. Even more when a relative of the dealing, organising chairman does the so called measuring of the boats.
I wasn't aware of any changes made in 2005 or 2006, so you are admitting the previous sold boats weren't that good afterall.
I'm just a student with ears and a memory.
Mirjam
That is true. Jaap H. is a member there, my typo.
That is not correct.
And alot more has happened then just having been there.
It is only you who is talking about 2004, not me.
With respect to the non-timber Blade, I have not seen that one in person, but then again who did ?
Like I said earlier were is this line of reasoning going to ?
This didn't bother Dynautic when I was doing the exact same things in relation to them.
You got yourt answer there. Any Watersport verbond measurer can do your boat. In laymans terms, you can choice any measurer you want, Pieter Saarberg happens to be a long time measurer of the Watersport verbond, it would have been downright silly to ban him from measuring F16's.
Are you claiming that the first boats by Dynautic were [censored] because they are now launching a totally redesigned carbon version ?
It is very nice of you to remind us of these traits, but I don't think anyone argued otherwise.
My question still remains.
Were are you going with this line of reasoning ?
If you have problems with the way things have turned as the are then please come to the zandvoort event and argue you case in front of the class members and people you accuse of having conflicts of interests. Currently you are nothing more then an anonymous handle on an internet forum. This is a status wholly unsatisfactory for the insinuations you are making.
Wouter
Come to Dynautic on tuesday 12:00 so you can meet me in person.
Tell me how to become a chairman and take my worries away.
Mirjam, just as ananymous as the rest of the forum.
LOL,
I challenge thou to a duel!
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(Guns or swords? (Blades?))
Mirjam,
When i did answer your first post i thought , this is giving some discussion but oke.When you put something down you must be having a good background for it and in my upinion you did not had that so i made the response.
I will answer the points you are reffering to , so the air will be cleared.
Quote: Why are the previous chairman and current chairman located at the same sailing club.
I don't know why we are both members of the same club and he is driving a Nissan and i drive a Ford, i am member for 22 years of that club and Wouter became also member. So i don't see your point here.
Quote: I personally think, there is a conflict of interest when a dealer is a chairman of an organisation.
Yes i am trying to sell the VWM build hulls/boats and i think i am making good boats.Yes i am chairman of the F16GC
but you forget that i am not making the decisions on my own but i am controlled by the other members of the Governing Council and that there is a good coörporation between these people to make the F16 class a proffesional class and not to make the bussiness of somebody bigger.
QUOTE: and an organiser of an event
No, i am not organising the Global Challenge 2007 but the sailing club WVZ is organising the event.Yes, i do some advising to organisers to make the event as good as possible for the F16 boats, so that all the sailors who will come over make the event to a succes.
QUOTE:Even more when a relative of the dealing, organising chairman does the so called measuring of the boats.
No,i am not doing the measurement/checking of the boats because i am not a measurer and have nothing to say about the measurements during the event. That's the reason why there is a chief measurer at the event. So i don't know who did tell you that i do the measurement but that person is wrong.
I think everything is clear for everybody now and that if you want to now more than ,again, please contact me and i will try to answer your questions.
Oh please! Boat builders and dealers have an interest in the promotion of the classes that they sell boats into. Everywhere you go in this sport you will find dealers and builders doing a huge amount of voluntary work to promote the classes that we enjoy sailing in. Last time I went to a UK F18 Nationals, it was sponsored by Hobie. Conflict of interest? The F18 international secretary general was, until recently, the UK Nacra representative. Conflict of interest?
Exactly what sort of conspiracy do you think is going on here? I bought my VWM Blade from Catamaranparts before the F16 association was formed, and before the Zandvoort event was even conceived. Are you seriously suggesting that there is some arrangement whereby VWM ship us slightly over-sized main sails or something so that us VWM Blade sailors can get a tiny, fractional advantage at this one event? Or is there some great conspiracy between Hans and the Zandvoort race committee to set courses that somehow favour VWM Blades over Dynautic Blades?
Or is your conspiracy theory more financial? That Piet Saarburg is going to retire on the proceeds of measuring F16s at Zandvoort, perhaps?
This class is run by volunteers, so rather than sitting around making up conspiracy theories about those people who are actually doing real work to get the class up and running, why not give them a hand and help out.
Paul
Yep, that's right! Just like the reason Hobie bring out minor refinements to the Tiger each year is because all the previous ones are crap.
Actually, it could be that VWM have now sold a decent number of Blades and have seen them sailed around the world in a wide range of conditions for several years and as a result the design has been refined and improved. I assume that the Dynautic Blades are perfect from the outset, and that there will never be any room for improvement.
No, somewhat more anonymous than the rest of the forum. Everyone else on this forum is open about their interests in particular boats. What exactly is your relationship to Dynautic?
Paul
< Some Differences between Vectorworks and Dynautic Blades.
Vinylester vs Epoxy, Glass vs Carbon, Round keel vs flat keel etc. >
What about price?
My guess for the Vectorworks Blade is EUR 13.000 (VAT included).
With all that carbon and the very expensive Shake Design carbon foils my estimate for the Dynautic Blade is EUR 16.000.
Does anyone know the right figures?
A wise price to performance ratio plays an important role in any boat choice.
I do not think that more carbon (on a relatively heavy boat such as the F16) should represent a seizable
quantum leap forward
in bootspeed
As if ... !
You could have been part of the selection proces itself if you had replied to the general call for volunteers and a new chairman in september, oktober and november 2005. Hans and the others did. Since Hans has been accepted as chairman he has a full right to finish his term and as such you can't become chairman right now. This proces will be repeated in the future and then you can take a shot at it.
Mind you, the highest entity in the class right now is the Governing Council consisting of 3 persons of which Hand is only one. These three all sail different types of F16's and don't share any loyalties. That should be more then enough to take your worries away.
I have a feeling that I'm much less anonymous then you are, the same applies to the members of the Governing Council. It is not for us to show up at your doorstep (? Dynautic ?) but for you to identify yourself in public. Either that or not make any insinuations / accusations. Your choice.
Wouter
With all that carbon and the very expensive Shake Design carbon foils my estimate for the Dynautic Blade is EUR 16.000.
Does anyone know the right figures?
Yes, and neither quote is correct. The VWM Blade is more expensive then that and the Dynautic Blade is cheaper.
Now I don't know who Mirjam is here, but I do think that this argument should not draw in both builders. Neither of these builder has contributed to this discussion and I don't think either of them support the positions taking in this thread. The argument seems to come down to somebody calling himself Mirjam and Hans/Governing Council. As such the builders are not involved.
Wouter
Mirjam is a male name in the Netherlands?? <img src=
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Have you used Google before? <img src=
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http:/
Right, that was what I tought, but when Mirjam was referenced to as
himself
I wondered if I had the wrong idea. Totally wrong idea.. <img src=
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I am the owner of the boat that lies most of the summertime on the beach at Katwijk (Skuytevaert sailing club). This Blade was I believe one of the first five boats build by Vectorworks. You could say that it was a prototype, just as the Dynautic boat of Mirjam is by the way. I am pleased that the boat has been developed further since. It has not changed much of course, I believe the last version has now more buldheads and stringers <img src=
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/>. Serious. Hans has made some improvements to my ancient Blade version to bring it up to standard. I seriously hope the Dynautic boat will be a succes because we all need more F16's on the water. More builders means better boats at a better price I was told at school long time ago. It is a pity that it took Dynautic so long to get the production started but I am indeed glad that he has survived so far and is now producing. I also hope that his learning curve is steep and that the boat of Mirjam is up to specification.
Jaap
who has seen already some UN-troops on the Dutch beaches to enforce peace on the North Sea
Jaap,
You are coming to the Zandvoor event right ?
Will you crew-up with your son ?
Wouter
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Have you used Google before? <img src=
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While I find this thread mildy entertaining, I followed the link Tony gave above, and found this image which best describes most of the content of the thread so far.
I have indeed the intention to come to Zandvoort this year (with my son).
<img src=
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Glad you like your toy.. Im sure others will like theirs.
Which is better? The one who has the better baboon hold the stick!
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